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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
 Posted - 12/05/2001 : 18:41:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Great reply, but with the more serious deiseases that we do treat, wouldn't they have been eventually wiped out by Natural Selection , i.e. Someone with Down Syndrome would not survive infancy in the wild, therefore these people would not be able to have offspring. Eventaully the anomoly would be bred out. These days, people with this affliction (and others) can reach the age where they do have children, so even if their kids don't get Down Syndrome, the faulty gene may be passed on to future generations where as before it would not have.
Other genetic problems will easily take the place of Down's syndrome. You are not going to drive away all genetic disorders by preventing Down's syndrome sufferers from reproducing. Down's syndrome can be passed on by other members in the patient's family, members who may have an unexpressed copy of the gene for Down's syndrome in their own genetic makeup, but who do not show any of the disease's characteristics. It would be much better if scientists could find a genetic cure for Down's Syndrome. That might change the genetics of the retarded individual and everybody would become a winner.
People who want nature to take its course without the aid of scientific cures have motives which I cannot understand. If these genetically-caused diseases can be artificially changed genetically, everybody wins. Doing things the Nazi way does not appeal very much to me. Whatever...
ljbrs  
"The only real way to reconcile science and religion is to set up something that is not science and something that is not religion." (H.L. Mencken) |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2001 : 20:16:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Other genetic problems will easily take the place of Down's syndrome. You are not going to drive away all genetic disorders by preventing Down's syndrome sufferers from reproducing. Down's syndrome can be passed on by other members in the patient's family, members who may have an unexpressed copy of the gene for Down's syndrome in their own genetic makeup, but who do not show any of the disease's characteristics. It would be much better if scientists could find a genetic cure for Down's Syndrome. That might change the genetics of the retarded individual and everybody would become a winner.
Um, ljbrs, did you read my earlier post about Down's? It's not caused by a recessive gene pair or anything like that. It's caused by an extra copy of chromosome 21 present in one of the gametes before fertilization.
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob
Edited by - PhDreamer on 12/05/2001 20:16:29 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2001 : 09:13:25 [Permalink]
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Down's Syndrome is more likely to occur in women bearing children when she is over the age of 40. It's damage caused to the Ova as it ages. So, even though it's genetic in nature, the best preventative is for a woman over the age of 40 to consider carefully whether she wants to have more children. Though the problem does occur in women younger than 40 - age seems to be a primary determining factor.
http://my.webmd.com/content/dmk/dmk_article_1457373
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain
Edited by - Trish on 12/06/2001 09:16:10 |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2001 : 16:38:58 [Permalink]
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Um, ljbrs, did you read my earlier post about Down's? It's not caused by a recessive gene pair or anything like that. It's caused by an extra copy of chromosome 21 present in one of the gametes before fertilization. (PhDreamer)
quote:
Down's Syndrome is more likely to occur in women bearing children when she is over the age of 40. It's damage caused to the Ova as it ages. So, even though it's genetic in nature, the best preventative is for a woman over the age of 40 to consider carefully whether she wants to have more children. Though the problem does occur in women younger than 40 - age seems to be a primary determining factor. (Trish)
Um, yes. I was non-observant and forgetful. Dumb!
ljbrs 
"The only real way to reconcile science and religion is to set up something that is not science and something that is not religion." (H.L. Mencken) |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2001 : 10:54:00 [Permalink]
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Okay, say another world destroying event happens. Say four thousand years from now the sun goes Nova. Are there any creatures that could survive such a catastrophe?
Yes, if a creature attracted mates through exaggerated communication abilities, by use of an over sized brain, one side effect will be that they will invent space travel. Astronauts will be saved by sex.
The Sun (not being part of a binary or multiple star group, necessary for a Nova to occur) is not expected to go Nova. (Particularly, it will not go anything similar to that within a very short four thousand years. More likely, in several billion years, it will become a Red Giant Star and leave the *Main Sequence*.) Although you did not mention *Supernova*, the Sun is not massive enough to go Supernova, so that end for the Sun would be out.
Actually, the Sun is expected to shed its outer layer as a Red Giant star and become a planetary nebula (having nothing to do with planets) leaving a White Dwarf Star at the center. The surrounding nebula will eventually dissipate and the only thing left will be a White Dwarf Star slowly to evolve into a Black Dwarf Star.
There will be nothing much left in the Solar System that a White Dwarf Star could support. I do not expect humans to get very far beyond the Solar System. We have yet to have one of our probes leave the influence of the Sun (to reach the Heliopause, for instance). Of course, we should keep trying, but space travel for humans is, at present, hazardous. According to tests made on returning astronauts from the International Space Station (and other similar long-term near-Earth experiments), space travel is awful for human physiology.
I am a pessimist about our surviving the Sun's evolution into a Red Giant star. I have never paid much attention to science fiction, choosing to study the real scientific literature instead. Even if humans were to survive, the evolution of the Universe is bound to destroy us in the long run. I understand that the final end (as if there could be any other kind of *end*) of the universe will rest with electron/positron pairs revolving around each other at extremely great distances, eventually to annihilate each other, violently. Now, our own electrons might indeed survive until the final annihilation, so there is always hope for the tiniest parts of us until then. Of course, I have not considered superstrings....
I enjoy everything you write, so I am not seriously challenging what you wrote, but am playing with the subject-matter....
ljbrs  
"Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error." Goethe |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2001 : 16:03:41 [Permalink]
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According to tests made on returning astronauts from the International Space Station (and other similar long-term near-Earth experiments), space travel is awful for human physiology.
Hmm, do you have a reference for this? I'm not doubting you, it's just that I have met with two different crews that returned from the ISS after around 5 months, and other than being very tired for a few days while their bodies readjusted, they claimed to be in perfect health. They have a strict exercise regiment to keep their muscles in shape.
So other than an increase in the chance of developing certain types of cancer from increased radiation exposure, what types of detremental effects are you referring to?
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2001 : 23:27:57 [Permalink]
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There was/is concern regarding loss of calcium and consequently loss of bone mass. Check SciAm Frontiers. I know they did an article on it once.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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hatten_jc
New Member
Sweden
44 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2001 : 06:28:01 [Permalink]
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There was/is concern regarding loss of calcium and consequently loss of bone mass. Check SciAm Frontiers. I know they did an article on it once.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain
This is becuse of lack of gravity where the bone loos calscium and muscels start to deteriate some of it you can take care of by exersise other parts is more difficult but could be taken care of by using a carusel device where the crev sleep and work they could creat Artifical Gravity trow rotation.
Alternativ rotating parts of the interiur of the ship could be use to creat gravity.
Never underestimate a human's capacity for active stupidity.
Sorry about my lousy English ? can we talk in Swedish :) |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2001 : 13:16:04 [Permalink]
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The Sun (not being part of a binary or multiple star group, necessary for a Nova to occur) is not expected to go Nova.
My point was that in worldwide catastrophic events those creatures that are saved are saved by evolutionary adaptations to unrelated conditions that only fortuitously benefit in the catastrophic circumstance. You cannot evolve to weather sudden catastrophe, it comes down to a matter of luck.
I mentioned a Nova because a few weekends back I drove up to Lick Observatory and they graciously allowed me to peer through one of their smaller telescopes at a violent solar storm that was underway. Flares of unimaginable violence were spouting off the surface. This sight left the same nagging feeling behind that minor earthquakes do. A feeling that that which is assumed stable and constant and life giving is anything but. So mentioning a Solar Nova is only a sign of personal insecurity and not a lack of scientific knowledge. (If truth be known, sometime near the end of the last Ice Age I was the chairman of the Brooklyn Tech H. S. astronomy club)
Particularly, it will not go anything similar to that within a very short four thousand years. More likely, in several billion years, it will become a Red Giant Star
I'm not sure that the distinction of a Sun that has swollen to the diameter of Mars orbit as opposed to a Nova will not be too fine a point to the inhabitants of Earth at the time to quibble about.
There won't be people by then anyway--just those arguing that they cannot be descended from such ugly mindless brutes as people.
Anyway you are leaving out a secondary cause of Novas--collision! If you'll look in the constellation of Perseus just to the left and below Algenib you won't see the dark star Nemesis, which is headed right for us and due to make a bank shot off Sol in early April of 6021.
Didn't know that I was a prophet, did ya?
There will be nothing much left in the Solar System that a White Dwarf Star could support. I do not expect humans to get very far beyond the Solar System. We have yet to have one of our probes leave the influence of the Sun
A little perspective please young lady.
Heavier than air powered flight was only achieved 98 years ago. That's the same year my Da was born. An Aeroplane made out of recycled bicycle parts to deep space probes in less than a century is pretty damn good. The next couple of centuries are sure to have new surprises.
I am a pessimist about our surviving the Sun's evolution into a Red Giant star. I have never paid much attention to science fiction, choosing to study the real scientific literature instead. Even if humans were to survive, the evolution of the Universe is bound to destroy us in the long run.
Species-with few exceptions-are just not made to last. Extinction is the way things go. Extinction or evolving into something else which is in itself just another form of extinction.
Here in the USA it is very easy to see that humans are highly malleable on an evolutionary level. You can, in most cases, tell at a glance if someone's family comes from Spain or say Ireland. The two places are only a hop and a skip from one another. The peoples separated from common ancestors by a mere few thousand years. Yet you can already tell the difference.
One way or another in only a million years there wont be any beings that you would call people. No need to wait for the Sun to expand.
I understand that the final end (as if there could be any other kind of *end*) of the universe will rest with electron/positron pairs revolving around each other at extremely great distances, eventually to annihilate each other, violently.
That's the current thinking. Seems pretty dismal.
I was hoping for a "happy ending" myself. Bartender; drinks are on me.
Now, our own electrons might indeed survive until the final annihilation, so there is always hope for the tiniest parts of us until then. Of course, I have not considered superstrings....
Super strings are great, particularly when worn with triangle tops. I'm not a great fan of Bandeau. Speaking of the tinniest parts…
I enjoy everything you write, so I am not seriously challenging what you wrote, but am playing with the subject-matter....
As it turns out, flattery actually WILL get you anywhere. (Hmmm, maybe that's how we can get to other solar systems…the super flattery drive. If only Douglas Adams were still here.)
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2002 : 21:12:32 [Permalink]
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I'm not sure that the distinction of a Sun that has swollen to the diameter of Mars orbit as opposed to a Nova will not be too fine a point to the inhabitants of Earth at the time to quibble about.
There won't be people by then anyway--just those arguing that they cannot be descended from such ugly mindless brutes as people.
Anyway you are leaving out a secondary cause of Novas--collision! If you'll look in the constellation of Perseus just to the left and below Algenib you won't see the dark star Nemesis, which is headed right for us and due to make a bank shot off Sol in early April of 6021.
Slater, do you have any links to sites about this Nemesis star? I have found a few but I would like to read more about it.
http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/lbl-nem.htm
http://members.aol.com/leuenfam1/nemesis.html
http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/extinctions-nemesis.html
I what I have found so far.....
"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin
Edited by - gezzam on 01/11/2002 21:14:00 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2002 : 23:15:27 [Permalink]
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Sorry to disappoint gezzam but I'm exactly the same kind of prophet that you find in the bible.
A fake.
I heard the Nemesis postulation used in conjunction with the on set of Ice Ages back in the mid 80's and threw it in here because it sounded sexy. Rest easy the Sun is safe.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2002 : 00:03:57 [Permalink]
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I understand that the final end (as if there could be any other kind of *end*) of the universe will rest with electron/positron pairs revolving around each other at extremely great distances, eventually to annihilate each other, violently.
That's the current thinking. Seems pretty dismal.
I was hoping for a "happy ending" myself. Bartender; drinks are on me.
Pardon me, but isn't this a description of the 'end' of baryonic matter within the universe, not the universe, itself? We don't know, yet, if dark matter has the same atomic structure as ordinary matter, doubtful, not to mention dark energy. And even if all matter and energy within the universe, were to null out, wouldn't the universe remain? Make mine a Talisker, neat please. Cheeries!
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2002 : 06:32:03 [Permalink]
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Pardon me, but isn't this a description of the 'end' of baryonic matter within the universe, not the universe, itself? We don't know, yet, if dark matter has the same atomic structure as ordinary matter, doubtful, not to mention dark energy. And even if all matter and energy within the universe, were to null out, wouldn't the universe remain?
Would it really matter if our species is not around to see what's left of the universe?
There is no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. It underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've known. Sagan |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2002 : 13:11:32 [Permalink]
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Ummm.., well, you tell me. Does it really matter how the universe began, if we, humanity, weren't around to see it? Does it really matter why the dinosaurs became extinct? Does it really matter, that star XYZ1202 will go nova in twelve thousand years? Scientific inquiry often leads down esoteric avenues, that could be argued, doesn't really matter. But that is the way science collects data and adds to the growing body of "scientific knowledge." Huh? IMO, yeah, it matters.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2002 : 16:19:20 [Permalink]
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He got you there.
So--question--is the universe space it self or only the stuff in it?
And if there are no longer "things" then there can no longer be motion; motion being a property of objects. If the was no longer motion then there would no longer be time; time being a property of motion.
Soooo, wouldn't that put us back where we started?
And what does any of this have to do with "Darwinism & Human Evolution"?
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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