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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 01/18/2006 : 15:16:47
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Stories about hybridization of humans and great apes are legendary. It's been attempted, and possibly has been accomplished. One crazy-sounding report even claims Stalin ordered such hybridization to create super-warriors. [End Teaser]
I almost posted this in the Pseudoscience Forum "Birds of a feather" discussion (about how the Rael cult is trying to recruit the discredited Korean stem cell researcher, Dr. Hwang Woo-sook). That thread made me think about this other issue. But I realized that this present issue would be way too off-topic.
I'm new here, and I realize that the following subject may have already been thoroughly covered in these Forums. If so, I apologize.
Okay, here's this topic:
From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuman):
However, there have been reports and rumors of humanzees reportedly "for centuries". Peter Damain, in his 11th-century De bono religiosi status et variorum animatium tropologia, tells of a Count Gulielmus whose pet ape became his wife's lover. One day the ape became "mad with jealousy" on seeing the count lying with his wife and it fatally attacked him. Damain claims he was told about this incident by Pope Alexander II and shown an offspring claimed to be that of the ape and woman.
Humans have two less chromosomes than do chimpanzees, ancestral "ape" chromosomes having apparently fused at some time during our separate ancestry as hominids. Yet it seems that such a chromosome count mismatch creates no definite bar to human-chimp hybridization. Scientists tend to believe such a hybrid is not impossible.
At present, there is no evidence that such a hybrid has, or does, exist. (In a recent famous case, "Oliver" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_the_chimpanzee), a decidedly odd specimen who walks upright, is attracted to human females, and is shunned by chimps. Oliver has turned out to have the same number of chromosomes as other chimps, and is now thought not to be a human-chimp hybrid, but rather a chimpanzee. Oddly, Oliver's genes differ so substantially from other known chimps that he is suspected to represent an isolated, perhaps extinct, chimp sub-population.)
Any actual Chimpanzee-human hybridization experiment would doubtless be considered unethical by the scientific community in general, creepy and "unnatural" by the general public, and an evil abomination by religious groups. Thus it's reasonable to assume that if any such experiments have recently been brought to fruition, the results would have been kept secret.
Amazingly, one scientist apparently really did rather publicly attempt to create a human-chimp hybrid. In the 1920's, Soviet biologist Ilya Ivanovich Ivanov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Ivanov) arrived in French Guinea to attempt such hybridization:
Ivanov reached Conakry in November 1926 accompanied by his son, also named Ilya, who would assist him in his experiments. Ivanov supervised the capture of adult chimpanzees in the interior of the colony, which were brought to Conakry and kept in cages in the botanical gardens. On February 28, 1927, Ivanov artificially inseminated two female chimpanzees with human sperm (not his own or his son's). On June 25, he injected a third chimpanzee with human sperm. The Ivanovs left Africa in July with thirteen chimps, including the three used in his experiments. They already knew before leaving that the first two chimpanzees had failed to become pregnant. The third died in France, and was also found not to have been pregnant. The remaining chimps were sent to a new primate station at Sukhumi.
Although Ivanov attempted to organize the insemination of human females with chimpanzee sperm in Guinea, these plans met with resistance from the French colonial government and there is no evidence such an experiment was arranged there.
There are also claims that Josef Stalin supported Ivanov's failed hybridization attempts because he wanted to create super-soldiers(!) (http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=2434192005):
Moscow archives show that in the mid-1920s Russia's top animal breeding scientist, Ilya Ivanov, was ordered to turn his skills from horse and animal work to the quest for a super-warrior.
According to Moscow newspapers, Stalin told the scientist: "I want a new invincible human being, insensitive to pain, resistant and indifferent about the quality of food they eat."
[I'd like to add that the above citation strikes me as having the smell of a journalistic hoax, though I may be wrong.]
I'd appreciate any comment skeptical people may have on this fascinating topic.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/18/2006 21:32:36
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2006 : 17:37:27 [Permalink]
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I've heard of some of this before, and have seen pictures of Oliver. He looks a little creepy and human-like around the eyes. It's a weird and interesting topic and I hope others contribute more information.
On the lighter side, I believe the following evidence illustrates that there may have indeed been some success with the earlier breeding experiments.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2006 : 18:50:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
I've heard of some of this before, and have seen pictures of Oliver.
There was a hour long special on Discovery channel a year or two ago concerning the chimp Oliver.
Genetic testing confirmed that Oliver was 100% chimp. 48 chromosomes.
He was an odd chimp to be sure, but there is a LOT of variation among species (just see dogs for an example).
As to the chimp-human hybrid:
Any testing to determine the compatibility of humans and chimps, if it has ever even been done, was never reported to the public. It would undoubtedly cause an extreme reaction.
The reason it is even plausible is that we crossbreed animals with different numbers of chromosomes all the time.
One very common example:
Horse(32 pairs) + Donkey(31 pairs) = Mule
I don't think anyone will ever try a human/chimp hybrid.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2006 : 18:52:43 [Permalink]
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| Looks like supporting evidence to me, Chippewa. ; ) |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/18/2006 18:54:41 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2006 : 19:15:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
The reason it is even plausible is that we crossbreed animals with different numbers of chromosomes all the time.
One very common example:
Horse(32 pairs) + Donkey(31 pairs) = Mule
Thank you. That's indeed the main argument for why such a hybrid may be possible.
quote:
I don't think anyone will ever try a human/chimp hybrid.
You mean, of course, try it again, don't you? It's already been attempted about eighty years ago by Ivanov, but he apparently did only three artificial insemination procedures, none of which took.
As for the future, I would expect someone or other to try it eventually, out of curiosity, if nothing else. In its simplest form, it's an experiment that requires no scientist (or even lab equipment) to make the attempt -- just two anthropoids willing not to kiss and tell. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/18/2006 19:16:32 |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2006 : 19:17:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa:
On the lighter side, I believe the following evidence illustrates that there may have indeed been some success with the earlier breeding experiments.
I believe this may be an insult to chimps. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2006 : 20:22:25 [Permalink]
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I've been considering the "Stalin" part of this issue, which is the claim that the Soviet dictator had ordered Ivanov to create human-chimp hybrids for the purpose of making a new race of super-soldiers and strong, pliant workers.
I still think that story seems too pat. It has explicit or implied elements of nearly everything a journalist could want in a story: Strange sex, a mad dictator, a nutty scientist, a race of bestial super-warriors. I still think this story is probably a hoax.
On the other hand, even if the story is a hoax, at least the hoaxer has done his or her homework.
Josef Stalin indeed did often viciously interfere with science. (See his later pet, Lysenko, and that pseudoscientist's rein of terror within Soviet biology! http://skepdic.com/lysenko.html) Stalin's interference with science was almost always for "utilitarian" reasons. He had a profound disgust with pure research which could not immediately put guns or butter on the Soviet table. For that reason, it strikes me as very significant that Ivanov was given the equivalent of $10,000 USD (some sources I've seen say $200,000) for an ape-hybridization junket to a French colony in Africa.
Stalin having been a very hands-on, micromanaging, tyrant, I can't imagine this much money (a very large amount of foreign currency at the time, especially given the Soviet Union's poverty) being spent without his orders, or at least with his active acceptance. And if Stalin funded the hybridization experiment, he would expect useful practical applications to follow quickly.
The Stalin story may not be true, but from an historic viewpoint, it has a certain internal logic.
My curiosity is aroused. I intend to look into this Stalin aspect further, and I hope others will, too.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/18/2006 21:59:40 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2006 : 22:27:23 [Permalink]
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Progress report on the "Stalin" aspect:
So far, most of the citations I can find refer to the same "The Scotsman" link that I gave in my first posting (http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=2434192005). Mostly, the Web sites referring to that article take it as gospel, without question.
I finally tracked down what might be the Russian newspaper source (http://vera.mrezha.ru/492/8.htm). I had elsewhere seen a garbled Altavista translation (http://www.ww2incolor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=35470&), but that is so badly translated as to be useless, except possibly as humor. If anyone here could please translate the Russian article and post the English results here, I would be most appreciative.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2006 : 23:26:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
You mean, of course, try it again, don't you? It's already been attempted about eighty years ago by Ivanov, but he apparently did only three artificial insemination procedures, none of which took.
Maybe.
If it wasn't just propoganda.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2006 : 02:41:05 [Permalink]
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I love that link, Chippewa.
I've seen a chimp that had significant hair loss. It becomes more clear how close we are to Chimps genetically when you see one without hair. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2006 : 04:43:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa
I've heard of some of this before, and have seen pictures of Oliver. He looks a little creepy and human-like around the eyes. It's a weird and interesting topic and I hope others contribute more information.
On the lighter side, I believe the following evidence illustrates that there may have indeed been some success with the earlier breeding experiments.
The evidence is unquestionable. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2006 : 05:06:24 [Permalink]
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Hey!
Chimps have feelings to!
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Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend
173 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2006 : 05:29:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Hey!
Chimps have feelings to!
That is an unevinced assertion. This is a skeptic friends network. That means: we're not friendly unless you're being skeptical! |
Sibling Atom Bomb of Couteous Debate |
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Jason Barker
Skeptic Friend
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2006 : 13:54:50 [Permalink]
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| I once glanced at an article that alleged Stalin wanted to create a supersolider by corssing gorillas and humans. I'll post it if I can find it. |
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Marge:What's that?
Homer:........a dinosaur. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2006 : 14:31:44 [Permalink]
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I for one would love to see evidence for a true hybrid, even if only a zygote.
It would lend extra weight to the evidence that chimps and humans share a common ancestor. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2006 : 15:06:04 [Permalink]
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Jason Barker wrote:quote:
I once glanced at an article that alleged Stalin wanted to create a supersolider by corssing gorillas and humans. I'll post it if I can find it.
Thanks, Jason, but I posted a link to that story earlier in this thread:
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=2434192005
I'm still hoping someone will come forward with a good English translation of what may be the original Russian article, here:
http://vera.mrezha.ru/492/8.htm |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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