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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 02/04/2006 : 12:14:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
[quote]Yep, natural as death, which doesn't mean it's moral. See my point? Natural, but not necessarily moral. I don't condone murder, not at all, pretty boy Natural, in my conception, does not equal moral. If it does in yours, then it's your problem.
You told me last post that because we see homo sex in nature (does this nature include or exclude man?)that means it is not immoral for man. I point out that in "nature" mothers eat thier young, cats kill for sport etc... You next say just because it happens in nature, this by default, does not make it moral. So which is it? Do other animals have morals? Who decides what is moral and what is unmoral?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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trogdor
Skeptic Friend
198 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 12:44:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
[quote]Yep, natural as death, which doesn't mean it's moral. See my point? Natural, but not necessarily moral. I don't condone murder, not at all, pretty boy Natural, in my conception, does not equal moral. If it does in yours, then it's your problem.
You told me last post that because we see homo sex in nature (does this nature include or exclude man?)that means it is not immoral for man. I point out that in "nature" mothers eat thier young, cats kill for sport etc... You next say just because it happens in nature, this by default, does not make it moral. So which is it? Do other animals have morals? Who decides what is moral and what is unmoral?
not trying to speak for Siberia but she was responding to your claim that "homosexuality is unnatural in every worldview" thsi claim is clearly false. bolding mine. |
all eyes were on Ford Prefect. some of them were on stalks.
-Douglas Adams |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 13:10:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by trogdor
quote:
not trying to speak for Siberia but she was responding to your claim that "homosexuality is unnatural in every worldview" thsi claim is clearly false. bolding mine.
And she first said that we see homo sex in the animale kingdom so we know that homo sex for man is not immoral. I point out the fact that we also see mama's killing their young in nature etc... Which she responds by saying that everything in nature is not moral. (sigh) |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 13:21:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
[i]Originally posted by trogdor
quote:
not trying to speak for Siberia but she was responding to your claim that "homosexuality is unnatural in every worldview" thsi claim is clearly false. bolding mine.
And she first said that we see homo sex in the animale kingdom so we know that homo sex for man is not immoral. I point out the fact that we also see mama's killing their young in nature etc... Which she responds by saying that everything in nature is not moral. (sigh)
No, no. I didn't say homo sex isn't immoral. In fact, I never used that word, immoral. I said it isn't unnatural, which is what you were claiming it was. Unnatural. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 00:00:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
[i]
[quote]No, no. I didn't say homo sex isn't immoral. In fact, I never used that word, immoral. I said it isn't unnatural, which is what you were claiming it was. Unnatural.
[quote]Yep, what she said.
And just because I consider something natural (abortion, abandoning your young, killing), doesn't mean I consider it moral, or even the right to do. Don't put words in my mouth, pretty boy.
You said you do not consider murder, abortion, etc... moral or even the right thing to do. So you must think they are immoral. You have made a right and wrong judegment. I am interested in how you decide what is moral and immoral? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 00:26:39 [Permalink]
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| Nice dodge, Bill. Rather than confess to your conflation of "natural" with "moral," and "unnatural" with "immoral," you change the subject to how someone else decides what's moral and immoral. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 00:40:55 [Permalink]
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| Bill, maybe you need to start a whole new discussion about whether homosexuality is natural or not. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 03:44:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Bill, maybe you need to start a whole new discussion about whether homosexuality is natural or not.
I don't really understand the significance of all of this "natural" vs "unnatural" stuff. Playing video games isn't "naural," niether are taking antibiotics, flying in aircraft, dropping bombs from those aircraft, or driving a car. Except for maybe the Mennonites or Amish, I don't see anyone sweating over whether any of that or anything else is "natural" or "unnatural" so why suddenly become obsessed with concerns over whether ongoings in people's bedrooms we probably neither know nor will even meet are "natural?" I don't see why I should give a damn if they have sex with pine trees, or their Harley-Davidson motorcycles, as long as they don't do it around me.
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
.. speculation...
That sounds like a reasonable speculation- in fact, although I'm sure there are many fine people who are well-adjusted that are duped into, I mean, uh, inspired to join the "hoods" ("priesthood", "nunhood" ha ha) I have to at least wonder about anyone that would want to become a priest or nun in this day-and-age, even throwing all of the sexual stuff aside. Maybe half-a-century ago I could more easily envision it- but that was a different time and culture. I can't see how any normal guy could live a life like that and be happy, or even want to try given any choice in the matter. I don't know about women, but I know that most of the nuns I've spoken with who'd spent their lives in that culture obviously weren't very happy people- the only one who didn't seem disillusioned with the path she'd taken was young (in her 30s) and hadn't been into it very long, so I don't think it had "sunken in" and occurred to her yet what a raw deal she was getting. |
Ron White |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 04:37:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Who decides what is moral in your world?
I do! So do you in yours. So does everyone in theirs.
Bill, I've got to hand it to you. In all of my years of hanging on these fora, I have never seen a thread hijacked, then turned into a beyond-salvage clusterfuck with such skill and mastery. Well done!
So, is playing a vidio game 'natural?' Sure it is. The game is there, created, after millions of years of hominid evolution, by individuals using the tools that they have become skilled with, and played by individuals whom that same evolution gave the dexterity and cognitive abilities to do so. Where is the problem here?
Homosexuality has been observed, in the field, in dolphins, many (most?) primates other than ourselves, penguins (famously, it seems), and many others that I'm currently too lazy to look up. The fact that it produces no offspring is irrevelent, as are pointless discussions of what is 'natural.' It is there; it happens and there is nothing anyone can do about it beyond spouting ill-informed blather.
Back to topic: Bill O'Reilly is a lying sack of shit! He and that Coulter skank deserve each other, and any prodgeny of that union could enjoy great success in one of P.T. Barnham's side-shows.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 06:52:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
...So, is playing a vidio game 'natural?' Sure it is. The game is there, created, after millions of years of hominid evolution, by individuals using the tools that they have become skilled with, and...
Well put- you're right. Video games and all the rest of the automated this-and-that are really no less-natural than an abacus (or our fingers, for that matter)... just glorified bean counters, when all of the cosmetic hoopla is distilled away. |
Ron White |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 07:19:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
...So, is playing a vidio game 'natural?' Sure it is. The game is there, created, after millions of years of hominid evolution, by individuals using the tools that they have become skilled with, and...
Well put- you're right. Video games and all the rest of the automated this-and-that are really no less-natural than an abacus (or our fingers, for that matter)... just glorified bean counters, when all of the cosmetic hoopla is distilled away.
Oh, certainly. Video games are just an extension from human's natural drive to play. The only difference is sophistication. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 13:50:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
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Oh, certainly. Video games are just an extension from human's natural drive to play. The only difference is sophistication.
In my opinion, everything is natural. Humans are natural. So if an ant nest is natural, then so is a city. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 14:01:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Who decides what is moral in your world?
I do! So do you in yours. So does everyone in theirs.
So morals are relative? Each is to his own on his moral belief? So while I hold child/man sex immoral those in nambla at the same time can hold that it is moral? And so man/child sex is both moral and immoral at the same time depending on who you ask? If morals are relative then how can anyone make man/child sex illegal? They have made a JUDGEMENT that man/child sex is immoral in spite of the fact that a group excists that finds man/boy sex perfectly moral. In a purly material universe who's athority was used to make man/boy sex immoral and therefor illegal? Just because you or I might say man/boy sex is disturbing at the very least and highly immoral who are we to make such an intolerant judgemant on the homo child pervert when morals are relative? In a world where morals are relative the child rapist/murderer is no better, or worse, then Mother Teresa.
Who made having sex in public immoral and illegal and what right did they have to make such an intolerant judgment. The website for having sex on public sidewalks seems to think that it is moral and healthy. Who are we to say they are wrong if morals are relative? I understand that most people want morals to be relative so they can be free to do whatever they want. But reality show us that if morals were relative then anarchy would prevail as nothing, not even the most vile or wicked behavour could be judged as immoral and therefor wrong. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 14:07:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Who decides what is moral in your world?
I do! So do you in yours. So does everyone in theirs.
So morals are relative?
Yep, so much that Hindus will probably consider you utterly immoral for eating meat (I'm assuming you do; but even if you don't, I'm sure I can find something you do that is highly immoral to some tribe). |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2006 : 14:11:07 [Permalink]
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Bill, what world do you live in that has universal moral values?
Tell me, are the Muslims rioting over Danish political drawings depicting Mohammad moral or immoral? |
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