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Jason Barker
Skeptic Friend
USA
55 Posts |
 Posted - 02/03/2006 : 20:19:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
This isn't about religion nearly as much as it's about figuratively spitting on someone else's ideals.
As if spitting on someone elses doens't happen every day on talk radio and a million times on the internet. I'm getting tired of the whole "we're insulting their beliefs!" line of argument. People have their beliefs insulted every day. All kinds of people from all walks of life of all races, genders, orientations, ideologies.
On this forum, we oftebn insult and mock the ideas of creationists, psychics, ufologists, conspiracy theorist, etc.
I myself made fake ufo pics to show how easily some people could be lying.
I have an illuminati pin on one of the suit jackets just as a joke at people who fear the illuminati.
YET those people I mock, of that stripe, and many others, still manage to go about their business, and take it without rioting and issuing death threats and seizing buildings.
People have their most personal and cherished beliefs insulted all the time, and sacred cows are regularly made in to filet mignion.
Just by me being gay and not ashamed of it, I'm insulting the beliefs of millions of fundamentalists of all kinds.
So I don't buy it that insulting their beliefs is so HUGE crime that casts this in a whole different light. As I said, people have their beliefs insulted all the time. Why can't these muslims just deal with it like all the other people who have had their beliefs mocked? |
Homer: He thinks he's so big, with all his money and wealth. But there's one thing he can't buy with his money.
Marge:What's that?
Homer:........a dinosaur. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 20:46:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Give me a break, Dave.
Hmmm... I certainly didn't make it clear in my earlier post that I in no way condone - or even understand - the sheer zealotry on the part of many of those who are pissed off. I was only trying to point out that this sort of reaction (not necessarily its scale) should be expected.
On the other hand, when the cartoons were originally published back in September, this mammoth reaction did not occur. It seems to me, and perhaps to quite a few others, that their publication again, a few days ago, was a pointed and obvious flipping of the proverbial finger towards a particular religious group.quote:
I will say this isn't about religion per se, but about the greater Muslim culture and its history of intolerance. They are going to have to learn how to live in a world where they can't just murder anyone who dares to "mock" Islam.
And I was saying that the same is basically true for almost everyone. People, in general, aren't rational beings and many would be willing to dole out grevious bodily injury to those who "mock" their cherished beliefs, whether religious or not.quote:
Iran still has a fatwa requiring the death of Salmon Rushdie, for god's sake.
That last phrase is perfect, H. 
Seriously, I know. I don't think that fatwa is any more reasonable or excusable than Nazi Germany or the beating of Reginald Denny. The problem is that a mob mentality, which is awfully useful in a lot of situations for a social animal like man, is easily usurped for horrible injustices. That religions tend to encourage a mob mentality is, of course, a bad thing, but eliminating religion isn't going to solve the more-basic problem of the mob mentality itself. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 21:12:01 [Permalink]
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Dave W. sed: quote:
From my point of view, the non-religious still have things they care about deeply enough for this sort of crap to happen. So even after religions are eliminated from the planet . . .
A forbidden slander upon Secularists! I kill you!
Seriously, though, the middle history of Islam was one of religious toleration, compared to the bigotry of the Christian world of the time. Up until the Reconquest, the Muslim rulers of Iberia tolerated both Christians and Jews as fellow "People of the Book" and integral members of their society, including high ministers of state. El Cid himself was hired as often by Muslims as by Christians. Sephardi Jews, I understand, to this day look back at Iberia under the Caliphs as a kind of local Golden Age at a time when the rest of Christian Europe rotted in benighted ignorance and bigotry under the Church.
Muslim fanaticism and intolerance really began to increase after the advent of late European colonialism and the State of Israel. Islam is an exception to he general rule that religions tend to become more moderate over time. Islam started with a fiery spirit, cooled into a relative tolerant religion, and has been heating up again in the last century or so.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 21:26:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Barker
I'm getting tired of the whole "we're insulting their beliefs!" line of argument.
I guess it's a good thing, then, that nobody here is making such an argument in defense of the enormity of the rioters' actions then, isn't it?quote:
YET those people I mock, of that stripe, and many others, still manage to go about their business, and take it without rioting and issuing death threats and seizing buildings.
...
Just by me being gay and not ashamed of it, I'm insulting the beliefs of millions of fundamentalists of all kinds.
Given that you don't appear to have the implicit backing of a newpaper's editorial board supporting either your mocking or your homosexuality, is it any wonder I don't find your analogies compelling?quote:
People have their most personal and cherished beliefs insulted all the time, and sacred cows are regularly made in to filet mignion.
Indeed, and those who do the insulting generally have the good sense to avoid pissing off huge swaths of people. One can insult extreme fundamentalist Christians with the knowledge that a larger number of more-moderate Christians will tell them to calm down. A TV personality might joke about Michael Jackson's skin color and expect a couple of irate phone calls, but he/she would be an idiot to insult all African-Americans while thinking the response will blow over by morning.quote:
So I don't buy it that insulting their beliefs is so HUGE crime that casts this in a whole different light.
Good, because I was pointing out that the "look at what religion does to people" arguments I saw in this thread were crap, and not trying to excuse the reactions themselves.quote:
As I said, people have their beliefs insulted all the time. Why can't these muslims just deal with it like all the other people who have had their beliefs mocked?
Because some of them have been taught to be over-sensitive and reactionary? And the fact that those teachings are public knowledge makes anyone who pokes the hornet's nest more than once a moron, as I see it. It's not like the publishers of the cartoons are saying, "gee, we had no idea that Muslims could be so touchy..." |
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Evidently, I rock!
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 21:46:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
It's not like the publishers of the cartoons are saying, "gee, we had no idea that Muslims could be so touchy..."
No, I think they were saying "We doubt Muslims are capable of anything other than violence." Considering the fact that Iran is currently racing to develop a nuclear warhead, it is an issue worth exploring. If Muslims threaten mass annihilation over a set of freakin' cartoons, then it's irresponsible to consider Muslims as anything except a dangerous and immediate threat. Forget peace talks. Forget building democracies. Forget sending aid. The future of our civilization depends upon whether our most cherished rights, such as freedom of speech, can ever be compatible with Islam. Well, we damn well better find out.
This is not an issue best avoided, in my opinion. It is something we need to come to terms with.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/03/2006 21:50:14 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 21:51:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
This is not an issue best avoided, in my opinion.
Absolutely, I agree. However, I feel that attributing the issue to religion misses the root of the problem. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 22:02:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
This is not an issue best avoided, in my opinion.
Absolutely, I agree. However, I feel that attributing the issue to religion misses the root of the problem.
While it may not be the root of the problem, it is currently a big part of the problem. Indeed, one wonders if the two can ever be unwoven again.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 22:33:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
While it may not be the root of the problem, it is currently a big part of the problem. Indeed, one wonders if the two can ever be unwoven again.
Again, if we could eliminate regilions from the world, we'd still have to contend with the same issue in the form of nationalism, racism, sexism, etc.
I once went to one of the several "Rock Against Reagan" concerts on the Mall in Washington, D.C., at the urging of my then-girlfriend. This was a peaceful Fourth-of-July protest with lots of cool music. Until night fell. The police, seeing a whole lot of black leather and mohawks, set up banks of floodlights near the RAR event. Stupidly, they set them up primarily between the RAR crowd and where the Mall fireworks would be going off, cutting off our enjoyment of the fireworks in a blaze of quartz light.
It started with some yelling, and then most of the crowd started chanting "TURN THEM OFF," but from there, things got ugly real fast. I knew I wanted to get the fuck out of there even before the first bottle was thrown at the cops. But the next thing I knew, a veritable hail of objects was heading towards the police, and my then-girlfriend was screaming profanities at them, as well.
Just because they left the lights on during a fireworks show. It wasn't a personal insult, and it certainly wasn't like the police were trying to "mock" any punk-rock deities. Had the RAR crowd spent five minutes walking to a different part of the Mall, the lights wouldn't have been an issue at all.
The police, I must say, showed incredible restraint, and turned the lights off for the remainder of the fireworks. (I don't know if anyone was even arrested.) And the clincher is that when the fireworks were over, and the next group took the RAR stage and began to play, the cops turned the lights back on and nobody cared.
No religion did that. No religion turned a largely pacifist crowd into a bunch of hateful asshats in under two minutes. Deal with the source of that problem on a global basis, and I suspect the motivation to even be religious will evaporate at the same time. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 23:25:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Deal with the source of that problem on a global basis, and I suspect the motivation to even be religious will evaporate at the same time.
Dave, getting rid of electric lighting isn't going to solve anything.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 23:27:09 [Permalink]
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Dave W. plugged: quote:
Again, if we could eliminate regilions from the world, we'd still have to contend with the same issue in the form of nationalism, racism, sexism, etc.
But it would be "One down, three to go."
Okay, it would first be impossile to rid the world of he scourge of religions; and secondly, trying to do so would entail persecution on the order of the religious atrocities of history.
Still, even skeptics can dream, can't we?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 01:13:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I once went to one of the several "Rock Against Reagan" concerts on the Mall in Washington, D.C., at the urging of my then-girlfriend. This was a peaceful Fourth-of-July protest with lots of cool music. Until night fell. The police, seeing a whole lot of black leather and mohawks, set up banks of floodlights near the RAR event. Stupidly, they set them up primarily between the RAR crowd and where the Mall fireworks would be going off, cutting off our enjoyment of the fireworks in a blaze of quartz light.
It started with some yelling, and then most of the crowd started chanting "TURN THEM OFF," but from there, things got ugly real fast. I knew I wanted to get the fuck out of there even before the first bottle was thrown at the cops. But the next thing I knew, a veritable hail of objects was heading towards the police, and my then-girlfriend was screaming profanities at them, as well.
Just because they left the lights on during a fireworks show. It wasn't a personal insult, and it certainly wasn't like the police were trying to "mock" any punk-rock deities. Had the RAR crowd spent five minutes walking to a different part of the Mall, the lights wouldn't have been an issue at all.
One of the factors was/is that no one thinks or plans. Maybe the police try but at that time if not on purpose planned poorly. People are followers. Us against them. Don't think about the consequences.
Reminds me of something that happened here in Los Angeles. There's a part of town called Watts, it's a poor area. A couple of times when something happened that didn't please the mentality of the people living there they rioted and burned everything. One can't help but think, what is in the minds of those people don't they know they are messing up their own neighborhood. How ever bad they think it is, they are making it worse. Everyone wants to complain but not enough people try to find a good solution.
Guess it's easier to burn down a building and say poor me and expect the government (or some leader) to help, than to think about how to change to make things better. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 04:13:52 [Permalink]
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There seems to be some controversy over this as well:
quote:
(CBS) NEW YORK Is that who we think it is in that picture?
Our interest in this story was sparked by an angry email sent to us here at WCBSTV.com. The writer wasn't angry at us, but rather about what he'd seen at the current National Black Fine Art Show in the Puck Building. This is the 10th anniversary edition of the show which features galleries from across the country selling the works of America's top African American painters, sculptors, and photographers.
But the writer had big problems with a painting by Harlem artist "Tafa". It depicts an upside down Christ-like figure with a face strongly resembling Osama Bin Laden. The email read in part, "This is outrageous. This is an attack against my religion. How can an artist go so low? Most people are outraged, most Christians."
On the phone with me, the artist declined to do an on-camera interview, telling me the work speaks for itself, but adding, the resemblance to Bin Laden was no accident.
I've said it before: religion is the greatest of all of the evils that our species has ever inflicted upon itself.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Jason Barker
Skeptic Friend
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 05:47:36 [Permalink]
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How everyone has forgotten the piss christ.
Why was there less violence over that than there is over this? |
Homer: He thinks he's so big, with all his money and wealth. But there's one thing he can't buy with his money.
Marge:What's that?
Homer:........a dinosaur. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 06:01:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Probably true. However there is a little catch. The evolutionists world, unlike anybody else's, could have started in a "warm little pond." Or so they say...
Keeping yourself informed about evolutionary theory is obviously not something you bother wasting your time on. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 08:42:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Dave, getting rid of electric lighting isn't going to solve anything.
Siiighh... Obviously, I was talking about rock concerts.  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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