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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 02/14/2006 : 09:07:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Well Dude, you and I will have to agree to disagree. Again.
Your assesment of the effective range of a quail load is dead on, no pun, and that brings up the question of exactly how far away was Wittington when he got salted down (not to mention the other one: was he a doddering, old fool or perhaps a drunken one?).
For those who might be unfamiliar with them, a shotgun works thus: When the shot load exits the barrel, the pattern begins to develope. This is controled by the choke, a narrowing down of the barrel at the muzzle. There is a space, depending upon the choke, beyond the muzzle when the shot is tightly contained. Anything hit with it within that space aquires a single, large, very messy hole in his anatomy, whatever size shot was fired. After that, the shot goes into it's pattern, which gets looser with range until it has lost most of it's steam and is so loose that it is no longer effective. From a 28 gauge gun, that ain't all that far.
As Cheney was shooting a quail gun, I assume (hate that word) that it was choked either modified or improved cylinder. If it was a double barrel it probably had one improved cylinder and a modified for the second shot. Or a modified and full choke. You get a tad more effective range from tighter chokes. If a person is shot with a smooth-bore, a good, knowledgable ER nurse can pretty well make a guesstimate at the range by the pattern and penetration of the shot in his unfortunate carcass.
Which brings us to the meat & 'taters questions: how far away was Whittington when he got salted down? If he was close, a few feet, maybe, half his head might be missing. How badly was he hurt? How tight was the pattern when it hit?
Except for slug guns, a shotgun is not aimed. It is used rather like a firehose. The bird flushes and the gun follows it, and as the muzzle passes it, the gun is fired while the muzzle is still moving. So the pattern is not a tidy, round affair, but, depending on the angle of fire, is usually enlongated -- rather like the water from that moving hose going across a wall.
If Whittington is still in IC, he was likely quite close to Cheney and it could very bad, I think.
Whittington is out of IC as of yesterday. He is still hospitalized and will carry some of the buckshot for the rest of his life.
I'm thinking the range was 10 yards or less. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 10:48:54 [Permalink]
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| And today he's back in ICU. That doesn't sound like he's as peachy keen as the admin implies now does it? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 11:17:03 [Permalink]
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I think your estiment is pretty good, Val. Maybe a little closer... maybe not, depending upon how the shell was loaded.
More and more, I wonder about the 24 hour delay in reporting the incident. That is, after all, more than enough time to make alcohol testing an excersize in futility except, someone correct me if I'm wrong, checking liver function.
Heh, the jokes and japes are already getting good. I'm waiting to see some lists of people who Cheney should invite out a'huntin'. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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sts60
Skeptic Friend
141 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 11:39:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
And today he's back in ICU. That doesn't sound like he's as peachy keen as the admin implies now does it?
Maybe not, but he's 78 years old. For all we know so far, he could have been injured worse when he fell down. As always, the details will go through several iterations before we get a reasonably complete picture.
In any case, I hope he recovers. There may be people out there who wish otherwise because it would be more trouble for Mr. Cheney, but I certainly am not one of them, regardless of my political beliefs. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 12:02:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by sts60
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
And today he's back in ICU. That doesn't sound like he's as peachy keen as the admin implies now does it?
Maybe not, but he's 78 years old. For all we know so far, he could have been injured worse when he fell down. As always, the details will go through several iterations before we get a reasonably complete picture.
In any case, I hope he recovers. There may be people out there who wish otherwise because it would be more trouble for Mr. Cheney, but I certainly am not one of them, regardless of my political beliefs.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11340558/
Mild heart attack due to pellets near the heart. The White House is holding pat on the 30 yards bullshit and decided to inject humor into the story. Of course, Patty is praising Dick's hunting prowess and focus on safety. Says she'd hunt with him again. Yup. He blasted a 78 year old lawyer. Mistook him for a quail. Hit right where he was aiming, though.
Pellets lodged near his heart. I'm thinking sub-10 yards range at this point.
Bill Engvall mode on: Cousin Cletus killed Cousin Bill. Mistook him for a deer. The bullet went right through the windshield. Poor ol Bill never had a chance.
Bill Engvall mode off.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 12:07:41 [Permalink]
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If quail loads penetrated his body, through winter hunting gear, to the popint where one would be near his heart and cause his to suffer a heart attack...
It seems the range must have been less than 20 yards, more like 5-10 yards.
Ok... how are you unaware of anyone within 10 yards of you, when you have a loaded shotgun in your hands, I don't know.
Can these bastards do anything other than lie to us?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 12:47:44 [Permalink]
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Dude declaimed: quote:
Can these bastards do anything other than lie to us?
Actually, they can. They can lie to other folks, also.
This is getting worse and worse, far worse than my fevered imagination had conjured in the last two days. At least my "instinct" that I smelled something being hidden was dead on, but little joy there, since an old man is in very bad shape.
The way everyone from the two prime cover-up conspirators (Cheney and Katherine Armstrong) to the Sheriff, to the ER chief, have been trying to minimize this incident. Yesterday, I recall reading an estimate of the range as being about 50 yards, from Armstrong, I think. (I'll have to backtrack to find that.) With pellets "lodged near the heart," and causing a heart attack, that's not an inaccurate estimate, it's a damned lie. My main theory now is that Cheney was indeed drunk, to have shot Whittington from a few feet distance.
I'm off to do some more sniffing around.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 12:59:17 [Permalink]
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Okay, here it is. The distance given was not 50 yards, as I recalled prior to my first coffee, but 30 yards. Still a palpable lie, considering the damage done to Whittington:
quote:
Katharine Armstrong, the ranch's owner, said Sunday that Cheney was using a 28-guage shotgun and that Whittington was about 30 yards away when he was hit in the cheek, neck and chest.
That's from CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/12/cheney.ap/index.html
Okay, bird hunters: In your experience, aside from its penetration, is the spread pattern of birdshot shot wounds ("cheek, neck and chest") consistent with a 30-yard, or a closer, range?
I've more sniffin' to do...
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/14/2006 13:04:24 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 13:10:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
If quail loads penetrated his body, through winter hunting gear, to the popint where one would be near his heart and cause his to suffer a heart attack...
It seems the range must have been less than 20 yards, more like 5-10 yards.
Ok... how are you unaware of anyone within 10 yards of you, when you have a loaded shotgun in your hands, I don't know.
Can these bastards do anything other than lie to us?
I think closer to 10. At 5 yards, 15 feet, the charge would have been devastating. At that close range, he'd have taken most if not all of the load, again depending on the choke. I think he'd been dead before he hit the ground. Take that with a grain or two -- I have no experience with a 28 gauge.
As much as I'd love to see Cheney's whitebread ass in a yet higher sling, made of coarse, dried-out burlap, I too hope Whittington comes out of it ok. And that brings on another thought: there will be no criminal prosecution, this is Cheney, after all, but what of civil actions -- Whittington is a lawyer, after all, and it doesn't seem likely that he'll take a sportsman-like attitude toward getting almost casually blown away by a possibly drunken lout.
And if Mr. W dies, his family might have a bit to say about it....
Edit: 'Mooner, I think that 30 yards is also bullshit. Fine shot peters out pretty rapidly and simply doesn't have the inertia to penetrate anything much thicker than a birds skin, at range. And indeed, shooting #6 or 7.5 much over 20 yards or so, you get a lot of cripples. Especally from such a small gun. The exception to this is the .410. Those things, oddly enough, actually have a better effective range than most other gauges. But few use them because their patterns are so tight and the weight of metal so small that they are very hard to hit with. They make an excellent slug gun, however.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 02/14/2006 13:26:27 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 13:17:55 [Permalink]
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I recall an exchange on some TV-series, or possibly a movie:
"What do you call one(?) dead lawyer?"
"Work in progress..."
Spoiler above. I'm not sure if it was "a dead..." or "one dead...". |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 13:19:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I recall an exchange on some TV-series, or possibly a movie:
"What do you call one(?) dead lawyer?"
"Work in progress..."
Spoiler above. I'm not sure if it was "a dead..." or "one dead...".
And I would have guessed "Not even a good start." |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 13:28:16 [Permalink]
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Time magazine online has this about how Cheney stalled the release of information:
(http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1159347,00.html) quote:
The Vice President was the press strategist, and Karl Rove was the investigative reporter. Vice President Cheney overruled the advice of several members of the White House staff and insisted on sticking to a plan for releasing information about his hunting accident that resulted in a 20-hour, overnight delay in public confirmation of the startling incident, according to several Republican sources.
"This is either a cover-up story or an incompetence story," said a top Republican who is close to the White House and has rarely been critical of the Administration in the past five years. "Karl was constrained, as was the entire communications operation, because the Vice President had arranged for how this was to come out."
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/14/2006 13:34:24 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 14:38:24 [Permalink]
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Beskeptigal, do you have any medical comments based upon the paucity of information coming out about Whittington's condition? For instance, was he likely shot directly in the heart, or have pellets migrated via his vascular system to block arteries feeding his heart muscles? What are the implications?
BTW, in CNN's video, the hospital spokesman is calling the condition (I hope I spell this right) "an atrial fib." They plan to monitor Whittington for "another week in the hospital."
From the text at CNN.com:
quote:
Doctors were deciding how to treat Whittington's condition, which was discovered after doctors noticed an irregularity in his heartbeat, Banko said.
Dr. David Blanchard, the hospital's emergency room chief, said Whittington suffered an "asymptomatic heart attack," meaning Whittington did not display symptoms such as chest pains or breathing difficulty. He said a roughly 5 mm piece of shot became lodged in or alongside Whittington's heart muscle, causing the organ's upper two chambers to beat irregularly.
Hope that helps.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/14/2006 14:50:39 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 15:17:06 [Permalink]
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The ER chief has said:
quote:
a roughly 5 mm piece of shot became lodged in or alongside Whittington's heart muscle
That would suggest Cheney shot Whittington from close enough that tiny birdshot penetrated the latter's upper clothing, his skin, his ribcage, and went all the way to, or even into, his heart.
Gun guys: I'm not familiar with 28 gauge shotguns, and have only once gone shotgun hunting for birds, and they were pheasants, which are larger than quail. I think we were using birdshot in 12-gauge guns, shooting the pheasants out of the air at some range. (BTW, they were wild birds, unlike Cheney we were not poaching and we ate our kills, roasted in sherry, and stuffed with walnuts.)
So I ask: How would this additional information affect your "range" estimates, keeping in mind the 28 gauge of the shotgun and Whittington's "cheek, neck and chest" wound pattern? Also, what is the exact size of shot that would be likely used in 28 gauge quail hunting loads?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 15:42:54 [Permalink]
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From The Smoking Gun:quote:
Cheney was convicted of drunk driving twice during an eight-month period in the early 1960s in his home state of Wyoming.
"Youthful indiscretion" seems a fair phrase to describe those incidents. Does anyone know if Cheney still drinks? I've been unable as yet to find any information on that.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/14/2006 15:48:14 |
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