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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 02/23/2006 : 11:00:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
I am pro-life...
Have you ever heard about anyone claiming to be anti-life? |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 11:54:13 [Permalink]
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Filthy Wrote: quote:
But let's take this to it's logical conclusion: Let us say that the Supremos manage to overturn Wade v Roe. That is going to go over like a fart in the bathysphere because a staggering percentage -- I read somewhere: some 60 + percent -- of the public are in favor of it. If it gets overturned, I think that the Republicans will pay through the urethrae come election day.
The Republicans, and a lot of democrats, have demonstrated stupidity on a galatic scale, but are they really that stupid?
You make a very good point, filthy. It's easy to forget that the budding theocratic tyranny we've got here is actually the result of a minority movement that was able to seize power through a "perfect storm" combination of 911 hysteria, remarkable political cunning, and outright election fraud. But the majority of people in favor of a woman's right to make her own reproductive decisions hadn't wavered through all this, except to continue the slow historic trend toward an even greater majority. I do think that most of the Republicans are chained to their anti-abortion stands, and will remain inflexible, and thus will suffer as Bush's house of cards falls.
But a lot of damage can be done by the theonazis in the meantime, especially with a likely SCOTUS majority to support them. And I still worry that Bush will not leave at the end of his term, but use some kind of "national emergency" as an excuse to remain in power undemocratically.
Verso, your desire to force women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term (let's be honest, that's what the anti-abortion argument is about) is not only despicable patriarchal medievalism on its face, it's also counter to enlightened cultural norms in the US and most of the world. You or I have no right to control women's bodies. Many of us are ready to fight to maintain our liberties. Probably no theocracy can to be established via democratic means in the US, and, I promise you, certainly not without a lot of theocratic blood being shed. Try to tell my female kin what to do, and you'll have more than very, very serious political problems with them, and with me. You'll have a war.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 12:01:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
As Dr Mabuse pointed out for me, the line is arbitrary. If I want to kill my son, who are YOU to force your bigoted, unenlightened, narrow minded atheistic/agnostic/whatever-you-are views on me?
I say life starts at 10 years old.
Given that children doesn't have a say in many important matters until they are 18 years old, how about then? 18 is the legal limit in Sweden when you are considered adult enough to make decision for yourself. Buying alcohol in the restaurant, and getting the driver's licence, that's when you really start living...
quote:
Dr. Mabuse:
quote:
Indeed, an arbitrary line has to be drawn somewhere.
Who are you to push your religious idea of when a zygote/foetus is a person on the rest of us?
For millennia, "the quickening" was the accepted point in time when the foetus was considered viable.
If your next door neighbor had a gun pointed at his 2 year old child's head, would you wave it off and walk away, saying to yourself "it's not MY business to push my beliefs of when life starts on him."?
No, I would run off to cower behind a thick wall or a large boulder and call 911. Someone insane enough to go around waiving a loaded gun is dangerous, and might consider me a viable target.
That fact that you easily conjure up a scenario like this makes me wonder what goes on in your mind.
quote:
No? You would do everything you could to save that child?
I would plead to the guy to consider what he was doing.
I wouldn't burn his house down, like some arsonist anti-abortionists burn down abortion clinics. Nor would I beat him to a pulp with a baseball bat.
quote:
Well there you go, forcing your beliefs down his throat. You.. you.. you ZEALOT! YOU BIGOTED SIMPLETON!
I'm open to discussion about where to draw the line, and I have some interesting arguments backing my choice of preferable arbitrary line, as well as what should constitute exceptions to the rule. Are you interesting in a dialogue?
quote:
quote:
For millennia, "the quickening" was the accepted point in time when the foetus was considered viable.
People thought the Earth was flat for millennia.
I guess it is. 
Do you even know how and when the Catholic church came about deciding that termination of pregnancy was a bad thing came about?
And you think that "the quickening" is an argument from the dark ages...
quote:
Life may again be shown some dignity.
Like Terri Shiavo, being a living d |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 12:13:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
I am pro-life...
Have you ever heard about anyone claiming to be anti-life?
Not at all; I was just making a wordplay on people who deem themselves pro-life by wanting to outlaw abortion. I find ironic those same people more often than not don't care about the environment and nature as a whole, which is basically what I consider to be being 'pro-life'. I'm in favor of the abortion of a zygote over drowning newborn children or throwing them in dumps. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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| Edited by - Siberia on 02/23/2006 12:18:05 |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 12:25:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Verso, your desire to force women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term (let's be honest, that's what the anti-abortion argument is about) is not only despicable patriarchal medievalism on its face, it's also counter to enlightened cultural norms in the US and most of the world. You or I have no right to control women's bodies. Many of us are ready to fight to maintain our liberties. Probably no theocracy can to be established via democratic means in the US, and, I promise you, certainly not without a lot of theocratic blood being shed. Try to tell my female kin what to do, and you'll have more than very, very serious political problems with them, and with me. You'll have a war.
So you're saying if abortion is made illegal, that's enough for you to engage in civil war?
Wow.
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 12:37:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
quote:
Verso, your desire to force women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term (let's be honest, that's what the anti-abortion argument is about) is not only despicable patriarchal medievalism on its face, it's also counter to enlightened cultural norms in the US and most of the world. You or I have no right to control women's bodies. Many of us are ready to fight to maintain our liberties. Probably no theocracy can to be established via democratic means in the US, and, I promise you, certainly not without a lot of theocratic blood being shed. Try to tell my female kin what to do, and you'll have more than very, very serious political problems with them, and with me. You'll have a war.
So you're saying if abortion is made illegal, that's enough for you to engage in civil war?
Wow.
She wouldn't be the only one that would be outraged. For me to go to war it would take a few other things to happen, but by the time abortion is made illegal they would have probably happened. By that time I think we will see a religous civil war happening.
And that I think will make the first civil war look like a brawl. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 12:38:13 [Permalink]
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| People went to war because of states rights and slavery being made illegal, right? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 12:42:33 [Permalink]
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The anti-abortionists use the "where do you draw the line" argument only for obfuscation. In fact, they and the laws they sponsor actually "draw the line" at "protecting" an unimplanted single-cell fertilized ovum. That definition is what freedom of choice people are actually fighting against in the US.
Make no mistake, the anti-abortionist theonazis are actively working to stop all abortions, women be damned. Their pretense of arguing over where the "line" is is drawn a straw man, and has nothing to do with their actual agenda. Their arguments are as dishonest as, and use the same dishonest tactics as, ID's proponents, and for the same reason: Both of these related theocratic movements are trying to force their narrow concepts of "God's laws" upon secular society.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 12:43:03 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse:
quote:
Given that children doesn't have a say in many important matters until they are 18 years old, how about then? 18 is the legal limit in Sweden when you are considered adult enough to make decision for yourself. Buying alcohol in the restaurant, and getting the driver's licence, that's when you really start living...
That's my point. Once you open the door to taking life as a matter of convenience, or not wanting to take on the responsibility of a child, then who can say where to draw the line? If someone wants to kill their 17 year old child, who are you to say "that's wrong."?
quote:
No, I would run off to cower behind a thick wall or a large boulder and call 911. Someone insane enough to go around waiving a loaded gun is dangerous, and might consider me a viable target.
That fact that you easily conjure up a scenario like this makes me wonder what goes on in your mind.
Yes, it was a very complex scenario that I've been obcessed with for months.
Honestly Dr. Mabuse, I usually appreciate your objectivity, but you are simply wasting words here.
quote:
I would plead to the guy to consider what he was doing.
That is what I am doing - and America is the guy with the gun.
quote:
I wouldn't burn his house down, like some arsonist anti-abortionists burn down abortion clinics. Nor would I beat him to a pulp with a baseball bat.
Any honest pro-lifer is just as disgusted with "arsonist anti-abortionists" as they are with any abortionist, or any other murderer. The fact that you bring it up is in an abortion debate is... again... wasting words.
quote:
Do you even know how and when the Catholic church came about deciding that termination of pregnancy was a bad thing came about?
And you think that "the quickening" is an argument from the dark ages...
I don't care about how the Catholic churce came about deciding anything. My point was - we have the technology to know that there is a heartbeat and brain activity before quickening, so we have less excuse than any time in history to be murdering unborn children.
And yes, I would love to hear how and where you draw the "line." |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 12:44:49 [Permalink]
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Verso questioned: quote:
So you're saying if abortion is made illegal, that's enough for you to engage in civil war?
Wow.
You better believe it. Bring it on.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 12:44:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
quote:
Verso, your desire to force women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term (let's be honest, that's what the anti-abortion argument is about) is not only despicable patriarchal medievalism on its face, it's also counter to enlightened cultural norms in the US and most of the world. You or I have no right to control women's bodies. Many of us are ready to fight to maintain our liberties. Probably no theocracy can to be established via democratic means in the US, and, I promise you, certainly not without a lot of theocratic blood being shed. Try to tell my female kin what to do, and you'll have more than very, very serious political problems with them, and with me. You'll have a war.
So you're saying if abortion is made illegal, that's enough for you to engage in civil war?
Wow.
I believe it is consistent with the ideals voiced in this quote.
"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 12:44:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't care about how the Catholic churce came about deciding anything. My point was - we have the technology to know that there is a heartbeat and brain activity before quickening, so we have less excuse than any time in history to be murdering unborn children.
Do you draw the line at when there is detectable heartbeat and brain activity? Just curious... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 12:49:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
The anti-abortionists use the "where do you draw the line" argument only for obfuscation. In fact, they and the laws they sponsor actually "draw the line" at "protecting" an unimplanted single-cell fertilized ovum. That definition is what freedom of choice people are actually fighting against in the US.
Are you joking? For obfuscation?
Where we draw the line is THEE matter.
The only non-arbitrary place to draw the line is at conception.
The egg is not a human - it has no human potential on it's own. The sperm is not a human - it has no human potential on it's own. But once they come together, that "zygote," "fetus" or whatever else you want to call it - has a life expectancy of about 80 years - it is a human life.
And even if it's too small to see, even if it's fingers and toes aren't fully formed - even if it isn't aware of itself yet, it is a human life. And innocent human.
And abortion is murdering that human. |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 12:51:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Do you draw the line at when there is detectable heartbeat and brain activity? Just curious...
Nope. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 12:53:15 [Permalink]
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Verso said: quote:
quote:Do you draw the line at when there is detectable heartbeat and brain activity? Just curious...
Nope.
Go to Top of Page
So that was just another straw man.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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