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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
 Posted - 02/23/2006 : 15:48:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
...However if no provision is made for unwanted pregnancies (my suggestion is Adoption)...
I'd like to point out that not all abandoned children are adopted. In fact, I'd guess the majority, at least here where I live, especially if the child has physical or mental problems or is born in the wrong race. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 15:53:56 [Permalink]
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I wrote:quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
A foetus growing inside the woman has no potential on its own until it is born. As long as it is in her womb, it is doing a piggyback ride, feeding off her like a parasite.
Taking it out before the 7th month will most likely kill it. Now, I don't know exactly in which week a prematurely born baby has a 50/50% chance of survival without severe disabilities with good medical facilities.
At that point, if the mother does not want to, or is somehow unable to care for the baby, then the goverment should be obligated to step in as caretaker.
I'd like to clarify my position with an amendment:
As the technology advances that allows for an artificial vomb for the foetus to transfer to, that should be the option for someone who wants an abortion. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 15:54:33 [Permalink]
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Verso seethed: quote:
Halfmooner,
Talking to you is very annoying. It's like this:
Halfmooner: "do you like pizza, verso?"
verso: "yes, I like pizza."
Halfmooner: "but do you like pizza?"
verso: "yes, pizza is very good"
Halfmooner: "why won't you answer my question? do you like pizza?"
verso: "talking to you is very annoying..."
I'm sorry, but I don't have the time to continue repeating myself, and will not be able to continue addressing your posts. Thanks for the discussion.
Go to Top of Page
Good. Now it's clear that you've made your refusal to answer questions explicit. You can no longer claim you are here to make a secular or even religious argument against abortion. You've simply expressed an unsupported opinion, and refuse to back it up in any way.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/23/2006 15:56:05 |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 16:04:42 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse:
quote:
Taking it out before the 7th month will most likely kill it. Now, I don't know exactly in which week a prematurely born baby has a 50/50% chance of survival without severe disabilities with good medical facilities.
At that point, if the mother does not want to, or is somehow unable to care for the baby, then the goverment should be obligated to step in as caretaker.
That's where I think the latest date should be set for abortions (with exceptions for medical emergencies and severe deformations, as decided by medical expertese) where the pregnant woman should have full control of her decisions, at her discression.
quote:
I'd like to clarify my position with an amendment:
As the technology advances that allows for an artificial vomb for the foetus to transfer to, that should be the option for someone who wants an abortion.
So let me get this straight. The point of viability right NOW should be set as the legal cutoff point for abortion. But as medicine advances, an artificial womb should be an option?
Huh?
Well, whatever you're trying to say - basing the definition of life on viability is extremely flimsy, because the point of viability is constantly changing.
edit: added second quote |
| Edited by - verso on 02/23/2006 16:06:02 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 16:06:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
quote:
So less than half of all conceptions actually results in birth...
Verso, go and check your statistics before you go and cry bloody murder. How many percent of the pregnancies are aborted at abortion clinics and who many goes to full term?
Will you now be honest enough to re-calculate life-expectancy and tell me how much difference a few abortions do?
That is fine. I admit I was careless in that statement.
But - I don't care if the life expectancy is 10 years. The point is, at conception, the "entity" begins growing, and the growth is a continuum until death at old age, or young age, or typical age, or whatever you want to call it.
quote:
A foetus growing inside the woman has no potential on its own until it is born. As long as it is in her womb, it is doing a piggyback ride, feeding off her like a parasite.
It's my turn to call major BS. "Potential on it's own?"
So when medicine advances to the point where we can sustain a life outside the womb completely, will your definition of life change to conception?
The definition of a viable life. Terri Shiavo was alive, but he life wasn't viable, and had no cognotive functions.
quote:
A definition of "life" based on the current state of medicine is remarkably... weak.
Not weak. Fluid. Adaptable to current state of medicine.
Right now, if a 5 month foetus is removed from womb, it dies. If a 7 month foetus is removed, with the right care, someone else can bring it up to self-sustainment. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 16:18:43 [Permalink]
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My questions stand, unanswered: quote:
Would you or would you not like to see physicians prosecuted for performing "abortions" on unimplanted zygotes for rape or incest victims? Do you consider that to be "murder"?
Why would verso now refuse to answer these particular questions? I can only conclude it's because he doesn't want the logical absurdity of his "conception" argument to be so starkly revealed. I'm not hurt, or put off personally by verso's refusal to acknowledge my presence, but I certainly am capable of drawing conclusions from his timing, right after he was asked two tough questions.
Verso's an intellectual coward. He knows that the more he responds to questions, the more absurd he will appear. I predict he'll soon be "shunning" others in this discussion.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/23/2006 16:19:58 |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 16:30:52 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse:
I'm sorry, I'm just baffled.
Whether or not someone is deemed worthy of being kept alive is based strictly on the state of medicine.
Again... all I can say is "interesting."
HalfMooner:
I'm not ignoring you, I just can't take the time to continuously repeat things 3 or more times, while trying to sort through your melodramatic posts, the bulk of which are simply making assumptions about me, and calling names. Sorry.
If someone else demonstrates interest in the questions you are asking, I will take that as evidence that I have not clearly answered them, and I would be happy to do so then.
edit: removed a potentially overly-inflammatory remark. |
| Edited by - verso on 02/23/2006 16:32:16 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 16:34:31 [Permalink]
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Verso proposed: quote:
If someone else demonstrates interest in the questions you are asking, I will take that as evidence that I have not clearly answered them, and I would be happy to do so then.
Okay. I missed one of your answers before, and admitted as much after you re-quoted yourself. I may have missed answers to my recent questions, too. I invite anyone to either quote the answers, or to confirm there have been no answers, and re-ask the two questions for me.
And please, verso, no more fake "pizza" conversations with me. That was yet another example of the tired old "straw man."
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/23/2006 16:44:27 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 16:50:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
What will go away is its use as birth control.
How do you define birth control?
My first though was that you meant abortion as a birth control as an alternative to contraceptives.
quote:
However if no provision is made for unwanted pregnancies (my suggestion is Adoption) or quality sex education including the promotion of abstinence until marriage, we strain the gnat and swallow the camel.
"promotion of abstinence until marriage" Rubicon95 on what planet are you living?
The need for bonking has been hardwired into our genes, and activates upon puberty. No kind of social engineering will ever remove the urge of young adults to get laid. Sure, promote abstinense to your hear's content, but you won't reduce teen pregnacies until you start teaching teenagers responsibility and how to use contraceptives and having safe sex.
quote:
May I ask those who are for abortion, what situations would not permit one?
As I've already stated, when the foetus has a 50/50% chance of surviving without permanent injuries. I'm a bit uncertain about what week that would be. 28 weeks? I suppose it would depend on the availability of advanced medical facilities.
In Sweden an abortion for critical medical reason is always granted as far as I know. Before the first deadline, it's at the pregnant woman's discression. Last time I checked it was 22 weeks.
Edit: formatting. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/23/2006 17:21:03 |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 17:03:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
Filthy:
quote:
What would I do if I came upon someone about to shoot a child?
Well, I'm a simple man with simple reactions; I'd most likely slip out the S&W Airweight and blow his sternum clear back through his fucking spine, and call it a job well done. I don't see the sense nor the point of the question.
verso, if you'd been where I have been, seen what I have seen, and indeed, done what I have done, you'd realize that life, human or otherwise, is the most expendable commodity on the planet. The only choice to make is: which lives?
Think about that.
Thank you for a composed post. It's refreshing.
The point of the question is - what right do you have to protect the child? If the person with the gun doesn't define life the same way you do, than you are simply forcing YOUR belief down his throat by stopping him. To me, standing by and letting abortion happen is the same as walking away from that situation.
It is not so much a right but a duty imposed upon me as a member of my society to prevent the death of the child, if I can. The child in question is conscious and viable, and will, in due course, assume it's place in that society, concievably replacing me. It is to the the benefit of my society, and by extention, myself, that the viable child lives and it's assailant must be stopped by any means at hand. I am too old and busted up to rassle, thus the little Smith. A phone call would take too long and the child would die. It's life is more valuable than it's assailant's. Easy choice.
I do not like abortion -- who does? -- however as disgusting as it is, an early abortion of a rape or incest concieved foetus, or even a ignorance & stupidity concieved one, can save the life of the mother, figuritively and too often literally, speaking. Later term, as I understand it, is used mostly for medical reasons, so the same reasoning applies. Thus, I swallow my disgust and support Roe v Wade.
quote:
...you'd realize that life, human or otherwise, is the most expendable commodity on the planet. The only choice to make is: which lives?
quote:
I'm not quite following you here.
Late night thoughts and memories; not really suitable for discussion. I regret that peragraph. But I wrote it and so I'm stuck with it.
Whose life has the greater value to it's owner; the hog who gave up the pork chop, or the human who ate it?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 17:05:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
Dr. Mabuse:
quote:
I'd like to clarify my position with an amendment:
As the technology advances that allows for an artificial vomb for the foetus to transfer to, that should be the option for someone who wants an abortion.
So let me get this straight. The point of viability right NOW should be set as the legal cutoff point for abortion. But as medicine advances, an artificial womb should be an option?
The current point of viability should in my opinion set the legal cut off point at this time. As medical advancements are made to push the viability to an earlier time, then at appropriate intervals, so should the cut off point. (See eventually, we will agree on the starting point)
Regarding the artificial womb, maybe I didn't express myself crearly enough. As medical science progress, and the option of an artificial womb becomes available, instead of abortion of the foetus it will be trasferred to the artificial womb.
It is quite clear that in the beginning the womb will only be suitable for "old" foetuses, but as the technology advances, the transfer date will be pushed back as well.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 17:08:09 [Permalink]
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Dr.M
Yes abortion as contraception I want to see banned
And as you read the post, sex education INCLUDING abstinence. I fear you misread as well as selectively quoted. Could you please re-read what you bolded and note you did only chose what you wanted. No where did I advocate solely abstinence.
BTW my wife waited...guess she is more evolved and has a greater control over her genes.
I however was a little lower on the evolutionary chain
And you didn't say what situation unless you approve of abortion on demand no reason. Which is all I ask.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 17:19:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
Dr. Mabuse:
I'm sorry, I'm just baffled.
Whether or not someone is deemed worthy of being kept alive is based strictly on the state of medicine.
Not just medicine. Next of kin as well. In Terri's case: her husband. In the case of the woman with the unwanted pregnancy: the woman.
In case you have one: your living will.
quote:
Again... all I can say is "interesting."
You may also find it interesting...
...that I'm for passive euthanasia.
My life is mine to live as I see fit, so I should have the right to decide to end it when I want to. For everyone else involved, and for my own convenience, I'd like to have a doctor monitor my departure, rather than a truck- or an express train driver. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 17:36:00 [Permalink]
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Siberia
Crap, that's really sad |
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Topic Locked
