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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
 Posted - 02/24/2006 : 08:01:11 [Permalink]
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Valiant
From what I read, I think our positions are similar.
I do recognize that there are situations when abortion is necessary. That being life of mother. e.g. if the child is born, either mother or baby, or both may die, so with any choice you would have death. I would hope we chose on the side of life. It may be cold and calculating but who has the greater potential for life, the mother. That is a choice only the woman can make.
To me, one abortion as contraception for irresponsibility is to many. It's a personal opinion that no human should die for my mistakes or immaturity. (My war against the not my fault mentality I see pervading this country)
Abortion is an effect in society, like expanding prison populations. Something in the society is messed up. Let's solve the cause for it.
On a side note, the whole originalist vs activist charade may be in for big suprise. When the "activist" judges use originalist arguements for Roe V Wade and "originalist" use activist arguements.
Considering citizen's rights (including life) cannot be taken with out due process. And according to to constitution, a citizen is someone who was born or naturalized, there's gonna be legal gymnastics. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 08:06:29 [Permalink]
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Halfmooner, your request for "chapter and verse" in Christian scripture that backs up verso's religious motivation only shows your ignorance about the spectrum of the Christian religion. Most Christians are not Bible bangers. Maybe verso is, but as of yet, he has done nothing to show that. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary because he's using a secular ethical argument against legal abortion, which plenty of moderate Christians do. I once had an atheist friend who also used the slippery slope ethical argument against abortion. All verso is saying is: as a society, in general we value human beings and protect human life, and this is a desirable thing. If we draw an arbitrary line to define when a human being is recognized for legal and social protection, then we have started an ethical slippery slope toward abusing other humans.
See, now I think the slippery slope argument is crap for two reasons: 1.) The case of an unborn child's rights conflict with a woman's right over her body, because the child is at that point a parasite. No other ethical situation resembles this such relationship, so the slippery slope ends at the other non-arbitrary marker: birth - when the child stops being a parasite. 2.) The woman's right over her body is paramount to the child's right to live because the child is underdeveloped, and therefore, has not yet started to experience life in a way that is uniquely human.
One does not need religion to ethically argue with my stance. Ethics are essentially subjective. Though I think my ethical argument is more in-line with current Western values, excluding the religious right, of course. That doesn't mean that the only people who disagree with me are fundamentalists.
You wrote: quote:
Here's why I think verso's "slippery slope" argument is a bogus argument, and not "secular" at all: It's mere a diversion from his real goal of banning all abortion, for all women, everywhere. He, and the anti-abortionists in general, would rather have us arguing about what week a fetus becomes a citizen, so we'll be so busy we won't notice that the government is forcing all pregnant women to carry even unimplanted fertilized ova to full term, including rape and incest victims (questions about which, significantly, he won't address). The "slope" straw man is just a trap for us to voluntarily slide down into, a rhetorical trick. It means nothing to the anti-abortionists, who already firmly define human life as being from conception, period.
Human life does start at conception, Halfmooner. By denying this plain biological fact, you have fallen into the anti-abortion movement's semantic trap by using their rhetoric. Secondly, you do not know verso's motivations, and you certainly have no evidence that he is involved in some kind of anti-abortion movement conspiracy to distract us.
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Marfknox, none of us can with success simply tell the others how or what to argue about. We all may have somewhat differing views, and we will express them. We're not a very orderly bunch.
Oh I'm not trying to control what anyone says. But if someone on here uses a bullshit argument, I sure as hell am going to call them on it.
The secular arguments for legal abortion are based on pragmaticism, and they have much to back them up. The secular arguments against legal abortion are very idealistic, but there is evidence that in practice, such policy would cause more harm than good to humanity. Doesn't mean that even an atheist can't hold the latter point of view. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 08:12:41 [Permalink]
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Rubicon95 wrote quote:
Abortion is an effect in society, like expanding prison populations. Something in the society is messed up. Let's solve the cause for it.
I don't see it this way at all. Abortion has been a wonderful solution in comparison to what happened to unwanted pregnancies in the past. In France in the 1800's, a religious group thought it would be a wonderful idea to open up a place where women could anonymously drop off their unwanted newborns. As soon as the place opened, they had more babies dropped off than they could handle, and even after they got the situation under control, more than half of the babies died anyway. I will look it up, but there is a particular last name in France that is quite common, and it is common because it was the last name given to all those abandoned babies.
Given what I know about the development of a first trimester embryo, I would feel zero guilt about an abortion at that time. I think that trimester in particular should remain completely unregulated, and socially, should not be considered anything immoral or unethical at all. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 08:23:16 [Permalink]
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@ marfknox : I agree with what you've been saying...thanks! You have a better way with words than I.
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 08:36:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't have to. There aren't any such posts. I never claimed verso had made a single religious argument, though I do claim he's made no valid secular ones. He's just repeated his passionate opposition to abortion, and then threw in the "slippery slope" red herring as a distraction in lieu of a real argument.
So then you agree that verso is making secular (even if invalid) arguments against abortion? Then why did you say, "Especially since all anti-abortion arguments stem from religion..."?
quote:
I repeat, I was asking him for chapter and verse that underlay his admitted (but undefined) religious conviction concerning abortion. Though I consider this a very fair question, he didn't have to answer, and he didn't, and I accept that. I haven't continued trying to badger him further. If I now assume he's got nothing but blather from preachers to support his "religious" stand, you'll just have to accept that such is my opinion.
If we were discussing how verso thinks the Bible supports his position, then you would have a point. But this isn't a religious discussion, it is political. I am personally more interested in verso's secular argument, I can't figure out why you care so much about his religious ones.
You have said that you don't think the Bible supports abortion, but there are an infinitely many ways to interpret the Bible, I'm sure anyone can find verses to support virtually anything. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 08:41:43 [Permalink]
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I had never thought about a fetus as a parasite, strange way of thinking that, however it does fit the description. Can someone remind me of the bug which actually eats the mother from the inside out as its born, or maybe they lay the eggs in the male, I dont remember. I just dont think the term works here because the host body in this case is intended as an incubator for the fetus.
I have a button I made which I pin to the inside of my coat, If anyone asks me what I think about the abortion issue I show the button "I dont think about abortion" |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 09:00:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Valiant
From what I read, I think our positions are similar.
I do recognize that there are situations when abortion is necessary. That being life of mother. e.g. if the child is born, either mother or baby, or both may die, so with any choice you would have death. I would hope we chose on the side of life. It may be cold and calculating but who has the greater potential for life, the mother. That is a choice only the woman can make.
Perhaps a similar understanding of fact, just different conclusions. I am for giving the mother a mulligan. People do stupid shit. Sure it's their fault, but I believe in giving them a chance to make a fresh start within the first trimester.
quote:
Abortion is an effect in society, like expanding prison populations. Something in the society is messed up. Let's solve the cause for it.
Is there a cure for human stupidity?
quote:
On a side note, the whole originalist vs activist charade may be in for big suprise. When the "activist" judges use originalist arguements for Roe V Wade and "originalist" use activist arguements.
Considering citizen's rights (including life) cannot be taken with out due process. And according to to constitution, a citizen is someone who was born or naturalized, there's gonna be legal gymnastics.
And fetuses have not been given "person" status in federal law. It occurs only in a very few states and those because of the active and prominent anti-abortion movements in them. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 09:49:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I had never thought about a fetus as a parasite, strange way of thinking that, however it does fit the description. Can someone remind me of the bug which actually eats the mother from the inside out as its born, or maybe they lay the eggs in the male, I dont remember. I just dont think the term works here because the host body in this case is intended as an incubator for the fetus.
I have a button I made which I pin to the inside of my coat, If anyone asks me what I think about the abortion issue I show the button "I dont think about abortion"
There is a species of communal spider where the young often devour the mother after hatching, but cannablism, especally sibling cannablism, in arachnids is so common that it's barely worth notice. And it's all a very good species survival stratgy. It gives the spiderlings a strong start on their lives.
Offhand, I don't know of any insect that does this, although many wasps are highly parasitic on other arthropods and their larvae, and of course, there are screw worms and bot flies, and their kinsmen. But no cannablism.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 02/24/2006 09:52:30 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 15:12:38 [Permalink]
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If God is against abortion, why did he make kangaroos? They are constantly pregnant and can toss the joey from the oven any time they feel threatened. A new one will later take its place.
Sorry, I didn't have the patience to read the rest of this thread but I've been dying to post this fact.  |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/24/2006 15:13:30 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 20:06:09 [Permalink]
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I'd stated yesterday: quote:
Though I consider this a very fair question, he didn't have to answer, and he didn't, and I accept that. I haven't continued trying to badger him further.
I for some time made it clear that I have quit trying to ask this question, but that appears to have been insufficient. I am no longer going to waste time trying to defend my original thinking in asking the question.
Clearly there is overwhelming general opposition to my thinking in this matter. Numbers alone don't make right, but I am going to put this aside for serious reconsideration. Instead of contining to assume I'm the only one marching in step, I'm going to consider the possibility that I may be the only one out of step -- aside from the anti-abortionists.
[Edited to correct spelling of "Cheney" on shirt image] |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/24/2006 23:05:07 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 21:20:17 [Permalink]
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Ricky wrote: quote:
I second pleco's post. But one thing:
quote from marf:
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...so the slippery slope ends at the other non-arbitrary marker: birth - when the child stops being a parasite.
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Are you stating that you think abortions should be legal until the moment of birth?
No. I know it is a pain in the ass to read and analyze my big long post about this, so I'll try to make it more concise this time: I was saying that I think we need to come up with an "arbitrary" line, and I think the arbitrary line come up with by the Roe v. Wade ruling is quite a reasonable and humane solution.
The reason I say we need an arbitrary line is because the two non-arbitrary lines: conception and birth, are both unacceptable.
- To draw the line at conception is unacceptable because the child is so undeveloped at first that it is silly to regard it having equal rights to persons. That would mean complete banning of fertility clinics, the birth control pill and other abortifacients, the morning after pill, and all embryonic stem cell research. In fact, if we draw the line at conception, a woman could be prosecuted for manslaughter if she miscarried due to reckless behavior.
- To draw the line at birth is problematic because right before birth we have a human being that is independently viable - he or she just haven't exited the womb yet. At that point they've also developed full senses and even recognize the sound of their mother's voice. Although the fetus at the late stages is still a parasite on the mother, it is so fully developed, to abort it without good medical cause is alarming to a common sense of morals and ethics. In short, allowing abortions in the third trimester, without good medical cause, does indeed lower our society standards on the value of human life.
Because neither non-arbitary line is acceptable, we must turn to the gray area. Roe v. Wade was a brilliant decisions, and it is a damn shame that so many people in America who appose the ruling don't even know the specifics of what it said. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 02/24/2006 21:22:28 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 22:41:18 [Permalink]
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marfknox said:
quote:
Halfmooner, your request for "chapter and verse" in Christian scripture that backs up verso's religious motivation only shows your ignorance about the spectrum of the Christian religion.
And you have the testicular matter to call me rude?
Shit...
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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trogdor
Skeptic Friend
198 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2006 : 11:10:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
If God is against abortion, why did he make kangaroos? They are constantly pregnant and can toss the joey from the oven any time they feel threatened. A new one will later take its place.
Sorry, I didn't have the patience to read the rest of this thread but I've been dying to post this fact.
yea. I was going to post it too but I couldn't find my source. whatever.
I believe that this common in all marsupials, but I could be wrong. It makes perfect sense. It should be noted that they are not aborting the baby that is inside them, they just give birth very early in development. then the joey moves to the pouch and finishes development there. the mother can stop producing milk at any time if it falls on hard times. Seem like a great survival strategy to me.
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all eyes were on Ford Prefect. some of them were on stalks.
-Douglas Adams |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2006 : 13:56:03 [Permalink]
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From Dude:quote:
marfknox said:
quote:
Halfmooner, your request for "chapter and verse" in Christian scripture that backs up verso's religious motivation only shows your ignorance about the spectrum of the Christian religion.
And you have the testicular matter to call me rude?
Shit...
It is not rude to criticize something someone has said, nor is it rude to accuse someone of ignorance of a specific subject if they make comments that reveal such ignorance. Halfmooner's request for “chapter and verse” implies that the only Christian basis for specific moral choices is Biblical. This is not true for the majority of Christians, as evidenced by verso's attempt at a secular argument against legal abortions. (Of the Christians I've talked with about abortion, a good half used secular arguments.)
Now had I said something like: “People like Halfmooner are nothing more than dupes. They are led around by their easily manipulated emotional state, and used as nothing more than a political tool.” – THAT would have been rude.
Also, I just went through this entire discussion looking for where I accused you of being rude, but it isn't in this discussion. So, what, are you harboring some resentment from a previous discussion?
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 02/25/2006 13:57:40 |
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