Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Our Skeptic Forums
 Creation/Evolution
 Humans vs. Neanderthals: Game Over Earlier
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2006 :  16:31:36  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
AP article from LiveScience:
quote:


http://www.livescience.com/othernews/060222_neanderthals.html

LONDON (AP)—Neanderthals in Europe were killed off by the advance of modern humans thousands of years earlier than previously believed, losing a competition for food and shelter, according to a scientific study published Wednesday.

The research uses advances in radiocarbon dating to revise understanding of early humans, suggesting they colonized Europe more rapidly and coexisted for a much shorter period with genetic ancestors.

Paul Mellars, professor of prehistory and human evolution at the University of Cambridge and author of the study, said Neanderthals—the species of the Homo genus that lived in Europe and western Asia from around 230,000 years ago to around 29,000 years ago—succumbed much more readily to competition.



Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2006 :  16:48:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Sounds like more support for the "Out of Africa theory" (also called "Eve" theory), over the "Multiregional theory" of human evolution. http://www.geocities.com/palaeoanthropology/Multiregional.html

This is from this website which explains both theories:

quote:
The "Eve" theory makes five predictions that the fossil evidence should prove. The first and major assumption is that modern humans from Africa must have completely replaced all other human groups. Second, implicit within this idea is that the earliest modern humans appeared in Africa. Third, it also follows that the earliest modern humans in other areas should have African features. Fourth, modern humans and the people they replaced should never have mixed or interbred. Fifth, an anatomic discontinuity should be evident between the human fossils before and after the replacement.


This article seems to especially support the fifth prediction.

Although, I think the fossils already supported the Out of Africa theory. The difference between replacing neanderthals in 6,000 years instead of 10,000 years isn't that huge a difference. Although the fact that anthropologists can get this specific in deterimining the human evolution timeline is quite exciting! Thanks for posting the article.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Go to Top of Page

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2006 :  17:43:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
marfknox noted:
quote:
Sounds like more support for the "Out of Africa theory" (also called "Eve" theory), over the "Multiregional theory" of human evolution.

Exactly. I'm a layman in this field as in nearly every other, but I'm a very fascinated one. There is that one male child's skeleton found in Portugal that exhibits both Neanderthal and Homo sap features, and it's thought to show interbreeding between the two species. But no Neanderthal genes have been found in modern Europeans. That boy, I suspect, may have been an infertile Homo-Neanderthal hybrid. If I recall rightly, the boy's remains are believed to date from somewhat later than when the Neanderthals were known to have survived. But the dating could be off a tad, and/or some Neanderthals could have persisted in western Iberia a bit later than has yet been established.

As a definite side-note, one of the most interesting things I've noticed recently is the discovery that modern Europeans seem to be genetically very closely related to the first Homo saps to inhabit Europe. That's from mitochondrial skeletal DNA comparisons, as I recall.

To me, that implies that such vaunted (and long politically and "racially" charged) events as the so-called "Aryan Invasion" were almost certainly more like cultural and political events than "racial" ones. It seems reasonable to imagine that relatively small groups from the east moved into Europe, bringing their more efficient technology. Likely, they prospered, and became the founders of local elites. Thus their languages could come to dominate most of Europe, even as their genes were greatly diluted in the much larger local gene pools. In Europe, only the Basque people are known for certain to retain a local pre-Indo-European language, though there are also modern Europeans who are descendants of non-Indo-European people who migrated into Europe.



Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Go to Top of Page

marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2006 :  23:43:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
To Halfmooner: Yay! Another human evolution geek. You can't imagine how it frustrates me when I'm talking to people about evolution and they say "Well how come there aren't any transitional species?" and I say "What about austropithecines, homo habilis, homo erectus, and homo ergaster?" and they what "What?" My minor was physical anthropology so learning this stuff is a hobby for me as well.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Go to Top of Page

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2006 :  00:02:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
marfknox stated:
quote:
To Halfmooner: Yay! Another human evolution geek. You can't imagine how it frustrates me when I'm talking to people about evolution and they say "Well how come there aren't any transitional species?" and I say "What about austropithecines, homo habilis, homo erectus, and homo ergaster?" and they what "What?" My minor was physical anthropology so learning this stuff is a hobby for me as well.
Yeah, really. If they want to criticize human evolution, they should complain about too damned many transitional species. The evolutionary tree's crawling with them like Moses' beard was with lice. A college minor is deeper, probably far more organized, background than I've got. But reading about the stuff for 50-odd years helps a little. I'm really excited about all the new information that's being gathered recently. It's a golden age for phys anthro. Carbon dating's being refined, and there's now the new genetic tools. Kennewick Man and the Ice Man! The Hobbits of Flores!

And I still remember reading as a kid in my family's already old, used collection of the Book of Knowledge (all we could afford), where, if I recall correctly, I read with amazement about the wonderful discovery of the Piltdown Man. ; )


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/27/2006 00:05:27
Go to Top of Page

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2006 :  00:53:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Here's part of an article from Science News:

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060225/fob3.asp

quote:
Big Woman with a Distant Past: Stone Age gal embodies humanity's cold shifts

Bruce Bower

A 260,000-year-old partial skeleton excavated in northwestern China 22 years ago represents our largest known female ancestor, according to a new analysis of the individual's extensive remains.

This ancient woman puts a modern twist on Stone Age human evolution, say Karen R. Rosenberg of the University of Delaware in Newark, Lü Zuné of Peking University in Beijing, and Chris B. Ruff of Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore. The fossil individual's large size and the apparent adaptation of her body to cold conditions are "consistent with the idea that patterns of human anatomical variation that we see today have deep evolutionary roots," Rosenberg asserts.

Although the woman belonged to the Homo genus, her species is uncertain. Now known as the Jinniushan specimen, she stood roughly 5 feet, 5-1/2 inches tall and tipped the scales at 173 pounds, the three anthropologists estimate. The only Stone Age Homo woman known to have approached that size weighed an estimated 163 pounds. Her partial skeleton came from a 100,000-year-old Neandertal site in France.

The Jinniushan specimen's size reflects her membership in a population that, as an adaptation for retaining heat in a cold climate, evolved large, broad bodies with short limbs, a shape similar to that of near-polar populations today, the scientists propose in an upcoming Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

My note: She's probably NOT "our largest known female ancestor," since she's apparently evolved from another Homo line than H. sap.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Go to Top of Page

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9688 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2006 :  03:38:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
In Europe, only the Basque people are known for certain to retain a local pre-Indo-European language, though there are also modern Europeans who are descendants of non-Indo-European people who migrated into Europe.

I thought Gaelic also counted as an pre-Indo-Europeian language, possible from the same roots as Basque, though far removed.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Go to Top of Page

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2006 :  04:03:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Mab wrote:
quote:
I thought Gaelic also counted as an pre-Indo-Europeian language, possible from the same roots as Basque, though far removed.

No, Gaelic's Indo-European.

This is from the "Goidelic" (Gaelic language) article at Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goidelic_languages
quote:
Goidelic
Gaelic
Geographic distribution: Ireland, Scotland, Isle of Man
Genetic classification: Indo-European
-Celtic
---Insular Celtic
-----Goidelic
Subdivisions:
Irish
Scottish Gaelic
Manx



One linguist, none other than Josef Stalin (!), had a theory that the Georgian language was both locally native and pre-Indo-European, and related distantly to Basque. I understand that theory is still around, but not accepted generally.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/27/2006 04:18:58
Go to Top of Page

furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2006 :  08:58:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
I too am fascinated by human evolution.
A very minor point HalfMooner you said:
quote:
That boy, I suspect, may have been an infertile Homo-Neanderthal hybrid.

Neanderthals are in the genus Homo. They are typically classified as either Homo sapiens neanderthalensis or Homo neanderthalensis. Like I said a very minor point.
quote:
You can't imagine how it frustrates me when I'm talking to people about evolution and they say "Well how come there aren't any transitional species?" and I say "What about austropithecines, homo habilis, homo erectus, and homo ergaster?"

Not to mention we are transition species - or the end of the line, I personally am hoping for the former.



If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
Go to Top of Page

pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2998 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2006 :  09:24:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
I saw on a Discovery HD show recently where a theory was discussed that the reason why Neanderthals passed on is that they did not develop advanced communication skills which would have been advantageous in the whole hunting/gathering department.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Go to Top of Page

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2006 :  14:02:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
furshur objected:
quote:
Neanderthals are in the genus Homo. They are typically classified as either Homo sapiens neanderthalensis or Homo neanderthalensis. Like I said a very minor point.
Thanks, that was real error. I should have written "Neanderthal-Homo sapiens hybrid," but I was sloppy.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/27/2006 14:18:50
Go to Top of Page

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2006 :  14:18:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
pleco proposed:
quote:
I saw on a Discovery HD show recently where a theory was discussed that the reason why Neanderthals passed on is that they did not develop advanced communication skills which would have been advantageous in the whole hunting/gathering department.

That would certainly fit with physical cultural finds, such as a stone tool industry that did not change for many millennia, and camp fires that were in simple pits, without stone placed about to reflect heat and make them more efficient. The Homo sap replacement team did this with their fires. This latter item would mean more time gathering fuel, and less time for hunting and gathering, for each therm of heating. Lack of effective language would make passing along any cultural advances very difficult.

Neanderthal is fascinating. Yet another "robust" homonid that almost made it.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Go to Top of Page

marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2006 :  14:23:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
furshur wrote:
quote:
Not to mention we are transition species - or the end of the line, I personally am hoping for the former.


If you can get your hands on it, check out Dougal Dixon's book "Man After Man: An Anthropology of the future". He's a SF illustrator and he made a whole illustrated book out his own many speculations of what species mankind might evolve into. It is an addictive read.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Go to Top of Page

marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2006 :  14:27:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Halfmooner wrote:
quote:
A college minor is deeper, probably far more organized, background than I've got. But reading about the stuff for 50-odd years helps a little.


I think you flatter both me and colleges. I suspect most people these days forget the bulk of what they learned in college elective courses. I remember stuff about anthro because I love the subject and continued to read about it on my own. If your passion is strong and you have your hands on quality books and articles, I don't see how your knowledge would be any less organized or deep. Especially if you've been reading over a long period of time - which I cannot claim yet due to my age.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.09 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000