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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 03/08/2006 : 13:45:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Bill:
… arbitrary evolutionary dogma…
Oy Vey…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 13:52:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Bill:
… arbitrary evolutionary dogma…
Oy Vey…
Yes, indeed.
I suspect this bill will have no effect whatsoever other than they'll find a lot of illegal abortion clinics around. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 13:53:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
Go South Dakota! - willing to step out and weather the teeth-gnashing hatred of people like Dude, and save some lives.
Perhaps you think these unwanted children go on to be adopted by Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie and live happy, well-adjusted lives?
Yesterday I saw a baby who was born addicted to cocaine. She began life in withdrawal. She was also born with Chlamydia (complications from that were inflamed eyes and pneumonia). Her mother didn't have an abortion because she preferred to spend the money on drugs. So the child was born. There is no family member willing to raise the child, and so it will go to foster care.
Now, I know a number of foster parents, and most of them have hearts of gold. Unfortunately, many terrible things happen to children in foster care. Sometimes at the hands of foster parents, sometimes other foster children do what has been done unto them.
It all comes down to more than just when life begins. I personally do not believe it begins at conception, but even if I did, I believe there are worse things than death. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 13:54:47 [Permalink]
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verso, bill, Robb,
Give us your definition of life, then explain why your calling a fertilized egg is a non-arbitrary position.
Barring that (because you can't do it), explain why you think you have the right to impose your personal arbitrary beliefs on other people.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 14:19:33 [Permalink]
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Dude:
Based on recent topics in this forum, I think we can conclude that no definition of life will be agreed upon.
Wendy:
I hope you don't ever feel MY life is miserable - it seems you might feel justified killing me. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 14:24:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
verso, bill, Robb,
Give us your definition of life, then explain why your calling a fertilized egg is a non-arbitrary position.
Barring that (because you can't do it), explain why you think you have the right to impose your personal arbitrary beliefs on other people.
I do not know when any particular child becomes a human during development, but neither do you. I take a conservative approach to ensure no baby will ever be aborted that is a human life. The point to declare human life and ensure no humans are killed can only be at conception. Before this the reproductive cells will not form a person on their own and most are not used at all and will die in a natural way.
If there is no God then are not all moral beliefs arbitrary? I think abortion is wrong just as I think stealing is wrong based on moral beliefs. We have laws against marijuana use even though most people do not believe it should be a law. All laws based on morality are arbitrary and we have a ton of them. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 14:29:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
Yesterday I saw a baby who was born addicted to cocaine. She began life in withdrawal. She was also born with Chlamydia (complications from that were inflamed eyes and pneumonia). Her mother didn't have an abortion because she preferred to spend the money on drugs. So the child was born. There is no family member willing to raise the child, and so it will go to foster care.
Now, I know a number of foster parents, and most of them have hearts of gold. Unfortunately, many terrible things happen to children in foster care. Sometimes at the hands of foster parents, sometimes other foster children do what has been done unto them.
It all comes down to more than just when life begins. I personally do not believe it begins at conception, but even if I did, I believe there are worse things than death.
If there are things worse than death would you support killing these children if you think death would be a benefit to them? If not, then why would you support killing them in the womb just in case they are born into a bad situation?
Edited to add: We need to fix these problems before they are born, this is our responsibility to the children being born. Your solution is to kill potential life instead of working to help the people having these children so these situations do not occur. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
| Edited by - Robb on 03/08/2006 14:37:27 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 14:31:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
verso, bill, Robb,
Give us your definition of life, then explain why your calling a fertilized egg is a non-arbitrary position.
Barring that (because you can't do it), explain why you think you have the right to impose your personal arbitrary beliefs on other people.
quote:
verso, bill, Robb,
Give us your definition of life,
(bill) What is the point? You will just dismiss it as arbitrary.
quote:
then explain why your calling a fertilized egg is a non-arbitrary position.
(bill) I never said that it wasn't. I merrily demonstrated for you that you will chide Robb, in this case, for pushing his arbitrary point of view as unacceptable, but then you turn around and in the very next breath force your arbitrary view on us using your arbitrary view point as the bases for your chiding. *sigh*
Not to even mention the fact that you have no problem at all when the government forces an arbitrary philosophical worldview on those who do not subscribe to the arbitrary viewpoint, and they do this using tax dollars, but of course dude has no problem with this because the arbitrary point of view happens to be HIS OWN. How convenient. *sigh*
quote:
Barring that (because you can't do it), explain why you think you have the right to impose your personal arbitrary beliefs on other people.
(bill) With the current law of the land I do not have the right to impose my arbitrary view of abortion on the masses, it is you who has the law to impose your arbitrary view on the masses. Right now some in our government are working on reversing those laws.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 14:59:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Robb said:
quote:
But I feel if you beleive that the fetus is a human life at conception (equating a fetus with a new born baby), then you cannot make this exception.
You, and those who think like you, need to be institutionalized.
You take your arbitrary point where you believe life begings and then you think it is ok to impose your belief on others.
For me this is the core argument about abortion. Do you have the right to impose your arbitraty beleif on another person?
No, you do not. This is one of those issues that is vastly more important than mere life. We have fought and died for over two centuries in this country to prevent anyone from being able to impose their own arbitrary beliefs on others, and you demented fools rise up in our midst and betray the single most valuable right we have.
You make me sick.
Oh fer Chrissakes, Dude.
Way to give them a frelling out by insulting them again. Instead of sticking to salient points, you have facilitated the derailment of the argument by adding in an ad hom.
Bravo. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 15:21:12 [Permalink]
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verso said:
quote:
Based on recent topics in this forum, I think we can conclude that no definition of life will be agreed upon.
Because you can't explain why your definition is non-arbitrary.
Bill said:
quote:
(bill) What is the point? You will just dismiss it as arbitrary.
Only because you can't rationally explain why it isn't arbitrary. That is the failure of your entire argument on abortion. Neither you nor the best "minds" on your side of this can come up with this explanation.
Robb said:
quote:
I do not know when any particular child becomes a human during development, but neither do you.
The only honest statement ever made by an anti-abortionist. But it serves to illustrate that your position isn't about "life", but rather your desire to impose your own arbitrary beliefs on others.
Val said:
quote:
Oh fer Chrissakes, Dude.
Way to give them a frelling out by insulting them again. Instead of sticking to salient points, you have facilitated the derailment of the argument by adding in an ad hom.
Bravo.
Insulting? Yes.
Ad hom? No.
It isn't really my place to instruct you on the informal logical fallacies... but ad hom is when you claim a person's position is wrong because of some negative thing you are calling them.
Insults are not ad hom.
I find the position of these fascists, that they think they have the right to impose their own arbitrary beliefs on others, to be deeply insulting.
If, in turn, my opinion of them is insulting to them, why should I care any more about that than they care about how insulting their position is to me?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 15:58:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
quote:
Originally posted by verso
Go South Dakota! - willing to step out and weather the teeth-gnashing hatred of people like Dude, and save some lives.
Perhaps you think these unwanted children go on to be adopted by Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie and live happy, well-adjusted lives?
Yesterday I saw a baby who was born addicted to cocaine. She began life in withdrawal. She was also born with Chlamydia (complications from that were inflamed eyes and pneumonia). Her mother didn't have an abortion because she preferred to spend the money on drugs. So the child was born. There is no family member willing to raise the child, and so it will go to foster care.
Now, I know a number of foster parents, and most of them have hearts of gold. Unfortunately, many terrible things happen to children in foster care. Sometimes at the hands of foster parents, sometimes other foster children do what has been done unto them.
It all comes down to more than just when life begins. I personally do not believe it begins at conception, but even if I did, I believe there are worse things than death.
Not a month ago, they found a newborn baby in a lake. The mother just threw it in, in a plastic bag. The guy who rescued it thought it was a cat when he heard a sound.
A week after? Another baby, same lake.
'Kill' a handful of cells, or risk the life of a fully formed human being? Mm... |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 16:09:27 [Permalink]
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Siberia:
quote:
Not a month ago, they found a newborn baby in a lake. The mother just threw it in, in a plastic bag. The guy who rescued it thought it was a cat when he heard a sound.
A week after? Another baby, same lake.
'Kill' a handful of cells, or risk the life of a fully formed human being? Mm...
I love your logic.
"It might be killed anyway, so let's just kill it sooner, while it's not recognizable as a human yet."
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 16:38:46 [Permalink]
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Robb said:
quote:
If there is no God then are not all moral beliefs arbitrary? I think abortion is wrong just as I think stealing is wrong based on moral beliefs. We have laws against marijuana use even though most people do not believe it should be a law. All laws based on morality are arbitrary and we have a ton of them.
Everything is arbitrary, yes.
But so what?
That isn't the topic under discussion.
Your attempt to change the subject is noted.
When we are talking about things like morality and it's relation to law, we are talking about things that we have come to a concensus on, one way or another.
Many of our laws, like those against theft and killing, are based not on a minority point of view and lack of definition, but rather on clearly defined subjects and a huge majority concensus.
With abortion, you have nothing like that.
You can't even define life, say nothing of when human life begins, in a way that even a simple majority of people can agree on. (and that is just one of many issues you have to address with abortion)
Yet you are ready to impose your undefined and arbitrary beleifs on the majority who do not share them.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 16:44:40 [Permalink]
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Dude:
quote:
Yet you are ready to impose your undefined and arbitrary beleifs on the majority who do not share them.
You are ready to impose your undefined and arbitrary beliefs on the minority - the minority that has no voice.
The most innocent and helpless group of people.
Oops, I forgot - obviously a human who doesn't LOOK like a human yet is disposable. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 16:53:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Where does it say that any accidental abortion is a felony?
The warning signs at the fair warning pregnant women from taking the ride.
So... taking it will be considered reckless by a zealous prosecutor. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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