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nescafe
New Member
USA
19 Posts |
 Posted - 03/11/2006 : 15:38:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by THoR
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Originally posted by nescafe
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Originally posted by THoR
Your body; however, is not a single existence, it is a composite. It is comprised of billions of fundamental particles - a myriad of individual elements each with its own identity. One of those elements is YOU. The rest is the corporal garb you inhabit.
How does that follow? Out of all the particles in the ocean, which is the one that makes it an ocean? Out of all the grains of sand on a beach, which is the one that contains the beachiness? Your statement is just as absurd.
An ocean is a composite. It isn't AN existence it is a collection of existences. An beach is a composite. It isn't AN existence it is a collection of dudes chasing a buncha babes.
There is nothing preventing a composite entity from being an entity in its own right. Consider the noble slime mold, or the driver ant colony, or the composite that is a eukaryote cell.
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quote:
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Originally posted by THoR
Every individual existence in the cosmos has had its own unique history particular to itself. A group of elemental particles cannot have a single experience.
Sure they can. Their collective individual experience (to thoroughly murder that phrase) could be the sum of all their individual experiences, the sum of the difference if their individual experiences, or some more useful function.
So, 2=1. I find that fascinating. Two experiences equals one experience. Do you really think that carbon atom in your knuckle remembers when the atom of selenium that became part of your brain was eaten by that cow that became your last hamburger?
Get real.
Actually it is more like 2^n -- something about power sets springs to mind. In any case, though, it is not really meaningful to speak of experience when talking about matter -- I think talking about world-lines is better suited.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
If all of the particles in your body had the capacity to think - each would have its own memory and its own separate consciousness. It is not possible for something to 'be' more than (or less than) a single existence, so the identity you experience must be that of a single element - or entity - hidden within the composition of your body.
Or it could be an emergent property of the way the bosons and fermions that currently make up my body interact -- no special particle of consciousness needed...OR noted here
oooh, you noted an or. Have you noted how easy it is to use proof by contradiction to refute cartesian-style dualism?
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quote:
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Originally posted by THoR
This isn't rocket science. It has nothing to do with religion. It is simple reasoning and elementary deduction. Life was no chemical accident. Without elements which have the propensity for animation, the laws of nature would have been more likely to randomly evolve a Porsche than a single celled animal.
or, as unfulfilling as it is, the physical constanst of the universe could have just happened to have the right values to allow for the unusual binding strength between carbon atoms. Speculating as to causes for that is more akin to philosophical wankery than scientific investigation right now -- we need more data.
Thought I mentioned this was simple elmentary deduction...
Simple, elegant, and wrong, IMHO.
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quote:
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Originally posted by THoR
Proponents of intelligent design and disciples of Darwin are both partly right and partly wrong. Animated 'natural elements' DO evolve, but life could not exist without them.
What, exactly, do you mean by 'animated natural elements', ThOR?
I'm a SOUL, man.
Personally, I am a sole man.
As far as animated natural elements go, I am partial to sodium, flourine, and phosphorus (although you gotta be really careful with the flourine). |
Insert witty saying here. |
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nescafe
New Member
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 15:48:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
Your body; however, is not a single existence, it is a composite. It is comprised of billions of fundamental particles - a myriad of individual elements each with its own identity. One of those elements is YOU. The rest is the corporal garb you inhabit.
If "One of those elements is YOU" then we can remove the rest of the elements without loosing what is "YOU". This is obviously false. Remove a kilogram of brain tissue from You and You will not think anymore: hence, you will not exist.
Heck, we don't even have to do that.
Take 1 human and 1 box of matches. Seal them in a large, nonoxidizable chamber with a 100% oxygen atmosphere. Get them to strike a match. Result -> exactly the same set of particles you started with, but the thoughts have mysteriously fled. |
Insert witty saying here. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 17:27:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by THoR
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Overly simplified reasoning which ignores the fact that complex systems exhibit "emergent properties" for which there is no reduction. In other words, your use of the word "must" is unjustifiable since known exceptions to the dichotomy you propose exist.
Cite one.
Cite an emergent property? Alright, neither hydrogen nor oxygen individually possess any of the properties of water.quote:
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And "elements which have the propensity for animation" is pure anthropomorphism, which I would bet is based upon either a misunderstanding or an ignorance of molecular biology.
Has nothing to do with molecular biology.
Your being alive has nothing to do with molecular biology?!? Do tell!quote:
Something must exist in order to experience and nothing can "be" more than a single existence. To posit otherwise is logically indefensible (or at least a VERY interesting case of conjure)
Oh, we're back to the silly semantic games, then?  Why don't you logically defend your ideas, first? Logically prove that your dichotomy was not false. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 18:42:24 [Permalink]
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THoR said:
quote:
You are 1
Your corpse = ....I dunno lets say 10.625^8
Do you see the inequality here?
You can try to explain it away all you want, but it takes some STRONG argument to convince me 1 ain't 1.
Show me a "me" particle.
nescafe said:
quote:
Take 1 human and 1 box of matches. Seal them in a large, nonoxidizable chamber with a 100% oxygen atmosphere. Get them to strike a match. Result -> exactly the same set of particles you started with, but the thoughts have mysteriously fled.
Yeah, when the CO2 level rose high enough to be toxic they'd die. Oxygen is not flamable (which is what I think you are suggesting there, my bad if you weren't).
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 18:48:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Nothing is funnier than watching someone try to rationalize a faith position.
Faith? No Way. Don't like the idea of being eternal.
But it ain't no leap of faith to realize that I am a single existence, not a composite...else I'd be refering to myself as 'US' and 'WE'. |
I would procrastinate but I never seem to get around to it. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 18:49:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Oxygen is not flamable (which is what I think you are suggesting there, my bad if you weren't).
Given what happened to Apollo 1, in a pure-oxygen environment the match might burn quickly enough to ignite the fingers holding it, and thus the person. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 19:11:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
THoR, in your opening post, you are saying that only one atom in a person's body is resposible for their personality, thoughts, etc. right?
Not at all. What we call thought or consciousness is is an action/reaction between the body and the being inside. While the dead may experience cognitive reaction of some kind (can't quite recall...been alive a while) it is certainly not the same. In fact there is a great difference between waking consciousness and sleeping consciousness. What I posit is that for all the peripheral electrochemical and physiological activity that goes on in my corpse, I am THE element wihtin it which experiences thought and consciousness. If I were a composit I would be an US.quote:
Do you realize how this contradicts the past however many decades of neuroscience? If this were true, then why is it that neurons in our brain interact? Why is it that animals with larger brains tend to be the smarter ones when only one element is to blame for that smartness?
Say the being inside is analogous to a software program and the corpse is analogous to a computer. One is NOT the other, but there is a synergy within which both evolve as each others' features are improved over time.
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I would procrastinate but I never seem to get around to it. |
| Edited by - THoR on 03/11/2006 19:12:03 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 19:15:58 [Permalink]
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Dave_W said:
quote:
Given what happened to Apollo 1, in a pure-oxygen environment the match might burn quickly enough to ignite the fingers holding it, and thus the person.
Pure oxygen, at 1 atmosphere, isn't likely to cause you alot of problem with a match.
Pressurize it some... and you have a different situation.
Put it under a couple hundrd atmospheres and you can get flames by just adding some flammable material.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 19:18:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
THoR wrote: quote:
This isn't rocket science. It has nothing to do with religion. It is simple reasoning and elementary deduction. Life was no chemical accident.
Isn't it just amazing that thousands of years of great minds from all over the world have been debating over a point that was apparently as obvious as 1=1? Those silly philosophers.
My sentiment exactly. Actually the concept of a soul or spirit or something which remains of the "id-entity" after the body falls off has a history as old as mankind. |
I would procrastinate but I never seem to get around to it. |
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 19:20:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
Life was no chemical accident.
Prove it.
Prove it was.
I'd be more receptive to the idea if my neighbors were rock people. |
I would procrastinate but I never seem to get around to it. |
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 19:30:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
He's serious? Who'da thunk....
So, if I have the right take on this, and I may or may not, THoR is positing some sort of 'life force' or soul.
Ok, then by extension all life has the same, right down to cyanobacteria, virus', mad cow whatsits, and so forth. Heh, don't tell the Baptist preacher that, or Bill either, for that matter... 
Yeah, not only cyanbacteria, but trees and grass and cockroaches, too. I wonder if they came from different parts of the galaxy?quote:
I think that before we can put forth the concept of a 'soul' we must first define it, then seek evidence for it's existence. As far as I know, neither has been done to anyone's satisfaction beyond Churchy's.
Yeah, I've gone out on a limb, but there's a reason life forms are different from non animated matter and natural selection/evolution isn't enough to explain it. All I have to do is look within and see that I am one and my corpse is a collection...hence evolves the idea of a spirit or soul. To me it is silly to think a composite has an 'individual' identity (individual means in-dividual). Has NOTHING to do with religion. |
I would procrastinate but I never seem to get around to it. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 19:33:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
All I have to do is look within and see that I am one and my corpse is a collection...
Well, if it is that obvious... give us a picture of this "me" particle.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 21:27:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Pure oxygen, at 1 atmosphere, isn't likely to cause you alot of problem with a match.
Pressurize it some... and you have a different situation.
15 psi (the Apollo 1 O2 pressure) is only 1.325% more more than one atmosphere. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 21:56:22 [Permalink]
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Dave_W said:
quote:
15 psi (the Apollo 1 O2 pressure) is only 1.325% more more than one atmosphere.
Weren't there some other things involved in that? I don't recall the details beyond a fire.
But the idea was you and a match in a 1ATM O2 environment. I doubt you'd come to harm.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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