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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 03/14/2006 : 19:07:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Ford's already in enough trouble - they're losing market quite fast to Toyota, Honda, etc. I'd guess the fundies are the last thing in their minds, right now... though they can and will be a sore spot.
Fords biggest problem has nothing to do with protests for gays or no gays. Fords biggest problem, but not their only one, is the UAW work force used to manufacture the Ford car. Same for GM. $1200 from every new car goes straight into funding the health care of current and retired UAW workers who seem to get a better health care and retirment package then congress does. Mean while Honda and Toyota make their cars right here in the same US of A that Ford and GM do only Honda and Toyota use non UAW workes. They still pay a very fair wage but it is not an insane wage with an insane benefit package like what the UAW workers get to put a nut on a bolt for GM or Ford.
If GM and/or Ford could bust the union and place an add in the Detroit free press for assembly workers stating at $14/15 per hour with modest health care package they would have a line around the block with potential workers and would now be on a much more level field with Honda and Toyota which of course would allow them to be much more compedative with their non-UAW rivals.
I know. Plus the competition from other countries and various problems in other countries - remember, Ford ain't limited to US and frankly, their cars are not nearly as popular overseas to my little piece of Hell as Honda and Toyota (which, by the way, look much better). Not even their trucks sell anymore. Same with GM.
Aye, I do believe christian fundamentalists are the last thing in their minds right now. Or should be, anyway.
quote:
Not even their trucks sell anymore. Same with GM.
I hope your not talking about Ford trucks?
FORD F-SERIES SETS NEW MONTHLY SALES RECORD
Ford F-Series, America's undisputed truck leader, is the modern-day King of the Hill when it comes to sales.
• Ford F-Series sets new modern monthly industry sales record for a single nameplate by any manufacturer, selling 126,905 trucks in July 2005 – more than any vehicle since the Model T in the 1920s.
• In July alone, F-Series sales generated enough revenue to rank the nameplate within the annual Fortune 500 rankings
• New for 2006: F-150 lineup grows with 2006 Ford Harley-Davidson™ F-150, along with a SuperCrew with 6-˝ -foot cargo box. F-Series Super Duty rolls out new Amarillo package nationwide.
http://www.fordf150.net/ford_news/ford-f-series-sales-record-july-2005.php
I think they sell 850,000 or there abouts anually. They can't make money because of the UAW and global comp. They used to be able to make money in spite of UAW wages when they were the only ones who made cars. Now Toyota and Honda make cars in the US to avoid many shipping and import costs and they use non UAW labor to build them. Many times the community will give them tax breaks to buld the plant. Toyota and Honda have it made.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 19:13:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Paulos23
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Ford's already in enough trouble - they're losing market quite fast to Toyota, Honda, etc. I'd guess the fundies are the last thing in their minds, right now... though they can and will be a sore spot.
Fords biggest problem has nothing to do with protests for gays or no gays. Fords biggest problem, but not their only one, is the UAW work force used to manufacture the Ford car. Same for GM. $1200 from every new car goes straight into funding the health care of current and retired UAW workers who seem to get a better health care and retirment package then congress does. Mean while Honda and Toyota make their cars right here in the same US of A that Ford and GM do only Honda and Toyota use non UAW workes. They still pay a very fair wage but it is not an insane wage with an insane benefit package like what the UAW workers get to put a nut on a bolt for GM or Ford.
If GM and/or Ford could bust the union and place an add in the Detroit free press for assembly workers stating at $14/15 per hour with modest health care package they would have a line around the block with potential workers and would now be on a much more level field with Honda and Toyota which of course would allow them to be much more compedative with their non-UAW rivals.
Well, I think there is more to Ford's problems then Union woes, but at that price it sure looks like a big part of it. Do you have a source for that number?
I have mix feelings about unions. My dad worked for one his whole carier and it never let him down, nor did he ever go on strike. Whatever they couldn't get in the first contract talks they would try again next time, and they usally got it then. My dad's union worked on the idea it is better to have them working then on strike and unemployed. Worked real well to, unlike other unions that seam to strike ever other contract.
There are some unions out there that are just to greedy IMO. They need to realize that sometimes the best intrest of the worker is also the best intrest of the company (if it is a good company). There is only so far that you can squeeze a company for benifits and wages and keep it in business.
quote:
Do you have a source for that number?
Looking for those UAW job pools I ran across this:
Absenteeism among hourly workers in the automotive industry runs about 10 percent annually, about three times higher than in other industries, according to a study published this year by the Automotive Supplier Action Committee, a trade group. At some Big Three plants, absenteeism runs as high as 20 percent.
The figures include vacations, paid personal days off and medical leave, but the most crippling problem is employees who just skip work. Managers must scramble to find hundreds of replacements from pools of fill-in workers to perform tasks for which they may not be trained....
Automakers and many UAW workers say there is no excuse for high absenteeism. Line workers receive up to five weeks of vacation and 17 paid holidays.
When plants are idled for retooling or slow sales, workers also collect pay. "Sick days" are not provided and are supposed to come out of vacation time unless it?s a prolonged illness that requires a leave.
http://www.workerscompinsider.com/archives/000148.html
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 19:38:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Union-busting, eh? Great idea! We can go back to this:
There was a place and a time when the union was needed in the US auto industry, but that time has passed. The competion is stiff these days and non UAW auto makers pay very fair wages. Toyota and Honda as prime examples. The UAW is going to bankrupt the Big 3 if measures are not taken. The UAW will play hard ball rather then budge and in effect seal their own fate. Nice.
Hanging onto the back of their giant ca$h cow all the way to the auto abyss |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 22:18:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Absenteeism among hourly workers in the automotive industry runs about 10 percent annually, about three times higher than in other industries, according to a study published this year by the Automotive Supplier Action Committee, a trade group. At some Big Three plants, absenteeism runs as high as 20 percent.
The figures include vacations, paid personal days off and medical leave, but the most crippling problem is employees who just skip work. Managers must scramble to find hundreds of replacements from pools of fill-in workers to perform tasks for which they may not be trained....
Automakers and many UAW workers say there is no excuse for high absenteeism. Line workers receive up to five weeks of vacation and 17 paid holidays.
It's unbelievable how people have such a weak grasp of statistics.
Five weeks of vacation plus 17 paid holidays is already 16% of the year, given a five-day work week (and it's 13% of a year with a six-day work week). A 10% absenteeism rate necessarily means that some people aren't using their benefits, or otherwise those employees with the lowest accural rate get less than (10% of 260, minus 17) 9 vacation days a year. Well, lots of companies used to start people off with 8, but after just a year bump it to 9 (and on up), but if the complaint is trained workers, then you're usually talking about people who've been on the job for many years, anyway.
Hell, 17 paid holidays is 6.5% of the work year for five-day-a-week workers, so claiming that a 10% absenteeism rate is three times higher than other industries simply makes no sense at all unless the average "other industry" only grants 8.7 paid holidays a year. My company gives us 10 paid holidays a year, so we must represent a "high absenteeism" workforce even without a high percentage of people skipping work.
Of course, if "other industries" includes things like bar employees, who tend to get zero paid holidays a year, then of course the averages are going to be massively skewed.
Hey, didja know that 40% of all sick days occur on either a Monday or a Friday? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 04:03:49 [Permalink]
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| I meant they aren't selling that well here, their pickup trucks, mainly. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 05:46:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Absenteeism among hourly workers in the automotive industry runs about 10 percent annually, about three times higher than in other industries, according to a study published this year by the Automotive Supplier Action Committee, a trade group. At some Big Three plants, absenteeism runs as high as 20 percent.
The figures include vacations, paid personal days off and medical leave, but the most crippling problem is employees who just skip work. Managers must scramble to find hundreds of replacements from pools of fill-in workers to perform tasks for which they may not be trained....
Automakers and many UAW workers say there is no excuse for high absenteeism. Line workers receive up to five weeks of vacation and 17 paid holidays.
It's unbelievable how people have such a weak grasp of statistics.
Five weeks of vacation plus 17 paid holidays is already 16% of the year, given a five-day work week (and it's 13% of a year with a six-day work week). A 10% absenteeism rate necessarily means that some people aren't using their benefits, or otherwise those employees with the lowest accural rate get less than (10% of 260, minus 17) 9 vacation days a year. Well, lots of companies used to start people off with 8, but after just a year bump it to 9 (and on up), but if the complaint is trained workers, then you're usually talking about people who've been on the job for many years, anyway.
Hell, 17 paid holidays is 6.5% of the work year for five-day-a-week workers, so claiming that a 10% absenteeism rate is three times higher than other industries simply makes no sense at all unless the average "other industry" only grants 8.7 paid holidays a year. My company gives us 10 paid holidays a year, so we must represent a "high absenteeism" workforce even without a high percentage of people skipping work.
Of course, if "other industries" includes things like bar employees, who tend to get zero paid holidays a year, then of course the averages are going to be massively skewed.
Hey, didja know that 40% of all sick days occur on either a Monday or a Friday?
They will sure miss those 17 paid holidays when GM goes belly up.
I say they need to go with the carrot on a rope route just like the Japanese. Of course the UAW will thwart that move in a second. The Japanse auto makers have mastered the art of lean manufacturing hence the huge profits. Ford sells 130,000 F-150's in one month alone and can not make money. 130,000 F-150's! In 30 days! The sell over 800,000 anually. To compare the highest selling car, which came from Toyota, did not even break 400,000.
The lost productivity in the UAW shop is just the tip of the iceberg. The wages that most UAW workers recieve in compinsasion to non UAW autoworkers (not bartenders) is roughly double. Mean while the non union workers over at Toyota just got their bonus check for good attendence and productivity and they feel very secure in their job as Toyota profits are at a record margin. Mean while UAW worker makes $76/hr but might lose his job next month.
From the Detroit Free Press:
"Delphi Corp. -- the employer in bankruptcy of 14,700 Michiganders -- said a new study it commissioned shows it pays its unionized workers $76 an hour including benefits, double what its competitors pay, and $11 an hour more than workers received in 2004."
"Terry Wilson admits he is overpaid, but he said it's Delphi's fault."
"The 48-year-old UAW hourly worker makes $29 an hour at Delphi's Flint plant producing air filters. Wilson has worked for Delphi for 18 years. Two years ago, before his plant started cutting back on overtime, Wilson made $90 an hour on some holidays".
"I've pretty much written my own check for the past 10 years," Wilson said. "It was pretty cool. You come in on any given Sunday, work 20 hours for $60 an hour, and not do a hell of a lot."
"In 2004, Wilson received nearly $80,000, including overtime. He can rattle off coworkers who received $120,000 last year."
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051126/BUSINESS01/511260313/1002/BUSINESS&template=printart
Most UAW jobs are not high tech jobs. Most are pushing cycle buttons on a robot who does all the asembly work for them. Some might install a bolt or put on a nut while the car rolls down the line. I know, I work for a supplier and have been to many UAW plants when they have a problem with our parts. All while they are pulling in as much as $120 g's.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 06:19:21 [Permalink]
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Ever program and run a CNC machine, Bill? I have, and it's worth a lot more than what I was getting paid for it.
So I ask: aren't these things supposed to be addressed during contract negotiations? As I recall, the airline folks just recently agreed to a large cut.
By the bye, how much does a CEO of an auto company pull down? Let us not be too quick to point fingers at the working man when others far less productive than he are getting gelt and bennies per year far in excess of what he'll ever aquire in his lifetime.
The model decisions of these companies are not decided on the floor, but in the top offices. Ford and GM are getting sodomized by the Japanese, again, because they insisted on building pieces of SUV garbage in times of high fuel costs and a fractured economy. It is executive stupidity, not the unions, that are the main cause of their problems.
Sooner or later, they and the unions will reach an accommodation. Nobody wants to void his meal ticket.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 06:24:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Ford's already in enough trouble - they're losing market quite fast to Toyota, Honda, etc. I'd guess the fundies are the last thing in their minds, right now... though they can and will be a sore spot.
Fords biggest problem has nothing to do with protests for gays or no gays. Fords biggest problem, but not their only one, is the UAW work force used to manufacture the Ford car. Same for GM. $1200 from every new car goes straight into funding the health care of current and retired UAW workers who seem to get a better health care and retirment package then congress does. Mean while Honda and Toyota make their cars right here in the same US of A that Ford and GM do only Honda and Toyota use non UAW workes. They still pay a very fair wage but it is not an insane wage with an insane benefit package like what the UAW workers get to put a nut on a bolt for GM or Ford.
If GM and/or Ford could bust the union and place an add in the Detroit free press for assembly workers stating at $14/15 per hour with modest health care package they would have a line around the block with potential workers and would now be on a much more level field with Honda and Toyota which of course would allow them to be much more compedative with their non-UAW rivals.
I know. Plus the competition from other countries and various problems in other countries - remember, Ford ain't limited to US and frankly, their cars are not nearly as popular overseas to my little piece of Hell as Honda and Toyota (which, by the way, look much better). Not even their trucks sell anymore. Same with GM.
Aye, I do believe christian fundamentalists are the last thing in their minds right now. Or should be, anyway.
quote:
Not even their trucks sell anymore. Same with GM.
I hope your not talking about Ford trucks?
FORD F-SERIES SETS NEW MONTHLY SALES RECORD
Ford F-Series, America's undisputed truck leader, is the modern-day King of the Hill when it comes to sales.
• Ford F-Series sets new modern monthly industry sales record for a single nameplate by any manufacturer, selling 126,905 trucks in July 2005 – more than any vehicle since the Model T in the 1920s.
• In July alone, F-Series sales generated enough revenue to rank the nameplate within the annual Fortune 500 rankings
• New for 2006: F-150 lineup grows with 2006 Ford Harley-Davidson™ F-150, along with a SuperCrew with 6-˝ -foot cargo box. F-Series Super Duty rolls out new Amarillo package nationwide.
http://www.fordf150.net/ford_news/ford-f-series-sales-record-july-2005.php
I think they sell 850,000 or there abouts anually. They can't make money because of the UAW and global comp. They used to be able to make money in spite of UAW wages when they were the only ones who made cars. Now Toyota and Honda make cars in the US to avoid many shipping and import costs and they use non UAW labor to build them. Many times the community will give them tax breaks to buld the plant. Toyota and Honda have it made.
And Siberia is from BRAZIL, not the US.
Do keep that in mind. But then again, facts never stood in your way to begin with.
By all means, continue bashing unions with baseless attacks.
There are far more valid complaints to levee against UAW than what you have here from the Approved Republican Talking Points(TM) memo.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 07:46:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Ever program and run a CNC machine, Bill? I have, and it's worth a lot more than what I was getting paid for it.
So I ask: aren't these things supposed to be addressed during contract negotiations? As I recall, the airline folks just recently agreed to a large cut.
By the bye, how much does a CEO of an auto company pull down? Let us not be too quick to point fingers at the working man when others far less productive than he are getting gelt and bennies per year far in excess of what he'll ever aquire in his lifetime.
The model decisions of these companies are not decided on the floor, but in the top offices. Ford and GM are getting sodomized by the Japanese, again, because they insisted on building pieces of SUV garbage in times of high fuel costs and a fractured economy. It is executive stupidity, not the unions, that are the main cause of their problems.
Sooner or later, they and the unions will reach an accommodation. Nobody wants to void his meal ticket.
quote:
Ever program and run a CNC machine, Bill?
(Bill) Yes, I did some programming in school and on my co-op job. I do a lot of tool design now so I work with several machine shops who build our tools. All work is done on CNC equipped machinery in the shops we use. We work with 3-4 local shops with 6-10 men per shop, a shop out of France, and just started working with a shop in China.
The CNC programmers and operators at all these shops make a nice living. (have no idea about China) One look at the parking lot and you know these people are not making $10 an hour.
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I have, and it's worth a lot more than what I was getting paid for it
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(bill) You should have moved. A good CNC programmer can make a very comfortable living if he gets in at the right place. Maybe your not in the right location. I know in my parts I have not run into to many skinny CNC programmers.
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So I ask: aren't these things supposed to be addressed during contract negotiations? As I recall, the airline folks just recently agreed to a large cut.
(bill) Yes, after their company has filed for bankruptcy or is on the verge. When they are faced with a pay cut or no company.
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By the bye, how much does a CEO of an auto company pull down?
(bill) Way to much.
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Let us not be too quick to point fingers at the working man when others far less productive than he are getting gelt and bennies per year far in excess of what he'll ever aquire in his lifetime.
(bill) No doubt about it. Before the emergence of the Honda's and Toyota's of the world the Big 3 were fat and sassy. They could have an overpaid CEO and UAW wages and still rake in the profits all at the same time. Those days are long gone. While fat and sassy the big 3 started to make junk in the 70's while at the same time the Honda Civics and Toyota Corrolas started hitting the streets in small numbers. 2006 and the cash is drying up for the big 3 as global competition is now a reality. Honda and Toyota makes cars and trucks just down the road and they can make them much cheaper then the big 3 can. Now all of a sudden the Big 3 have realized they will go extinct if they continue as is. Where they will trim the fat is yet to be seen but what no longer can be denied is that the fat must be trimmed some where or die.
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The model decisions of these companies are not decided on the floor, but in the top offices. Ford and GM are getting sodomized by the Japanese, again, because they insisted on building pieces of SUV garbage in times of high fuel costs and a fractured economy.
(bill) First of the quality gap that once existed between the "imports" and the "domestics" is just about closed up. The big 3 did kick into gear after the Japanese were putting out corollas that would go for 250,000 miles back in the 80's. These days the quality factor must be looked at from car to car as now many domestics out rank imports in quality. JD Power and Associates is a good place to read about that.
Second the big 3 tooled up for trucks and SUVS because that is what was selling. The highest selling car last year did not break 400,000, while Ford sold over 800,000 F-150's alone. Not to mention all the SUVS such as the Explorer, Expedition, Excursion etc... Not to mention the GM 1500 which sold in the 600,000 range I do believe. Not to mention their SUV line up of Trail Blazer, Suburban, Tahoe etc... Plus all the cars they sell. The imports sell more cars but the domestics kill the imports in truck and suvs, which when you look at the numbers this is what the Americans are buying, Trucks and SUVS. Even in most big cites SUVS, pickup trucks, vans, mini-vans are in more abundance on the road then cars. The trend now is to take a full blown SUV such as a Chevy Avalanche and then put 6-8K worth of after market wheels and tires on it to boot. Have you seen a fully decked out Cadillac Escalate? Oh my ,that is one nice ride....
However the Japanese are making big trucks and suvs now such as the Titan and Path Finder. Toyota just built a heavy truck assembly plant down Texas. They see what has been selling and they want in the game. So Ford and GM can not rest as now the Japanese have their eye on the truck market as well.
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It is executive stupidity, not the unions, that are the main cause of their problems.
(bill) I don't know. They sold 130,000 F150's in last July alone (while gas was averaging $2.50/gallon) so why can't they make money? Maybe some executive stupidity but clearly inflated union wages, benefits, and perks has a big part to do with it.
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Sooner or later, they and the unions will reach an accommodation. Nobody wants to void his meal ticket.
(bill) I hope so Filthy. Otherwise we will have to change the anthem of baseball, hotdogs, apple pie, and Chevrolet to hot dogs, apple pie, and Toyota....
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 08:18:26 [Permalink]
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Interesting numbers. Thanks.
The CNC I ran was in a lift truck factory. I was pulled out of the weld shop for it because they needed someone quickly and I had some machine experience. The operator who was leaving taught me. It doesn't take much of a mistake to flush 100,000 worth of parts (I caught my mistakes before they got anything like that bad). Coincidently, I voted against unionizing that plant. I and most other employees felt that we had a pretty good deal going already, and we did.
So, you agree that it is not just all one thing. Certainly some of the unions are too full of themselves; almost like a political party. And much of the rot starts at the top on both sides of the table. So short sighted to dedicate so much production to heavy vehicles. They sell, but to whom? Not to people who can afford nothing fancier than a Honda or Toyota, and these are in the majority, by far. And in the long run, they are where the money is. Henry Ford knew that well, and it was his Models T and A (*hehehe*) that would spell his success.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 09:31:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Interesting numbers. Thanks.
The CNC I ran was in a lift truck factory. I was pulled out of the weld shop for it because they needed someone quickly and I had some machine experience. The operator who was leaving taught me. It doesn't take much of a mistake to flush 100,000 worth of parts (I caught my mistakes before they got anything like that bad). Coincidently, I voted against unionizing that plant. I and most other employees felt that we had a pretty good deal going already, and we did.
So, you agree that it is not just all one thing. Certainly some of the unions are too full of themselves; almost like a political party. And much of the rot starts at the top on both sides of the table. So short sighted to dedicate so much production to heavy vehicles. They sell, but to whom? Not to people who can afford nothing fancier than a Honda or Toyota, and these are in the majority, by far. And in the long run, they are where the money is. Henry Ford knew that well, and it was his Models T and A (*hehehe*) that would spell his success.
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The CNC I ran was in a lift truck factory. I was pulled out of the weld shop for it because they needed someone quickly and I had some machine experience. The operator who was leaving taught me. It doesn't take much of a mistake to flush 100,000 worth of parts (I caught my mistakes before they got anything like that bad).
(bill) I agree. I have a very high appreciation for tool makers and machinists. It is one thing to draw up a tool on the computer and dimension something with a tolerance of +/- .001", it is quit another to build the darn thing and actually hold the +/- .001". Sometimes they can even be tighter. I can't believe the tolerances the old timers could hold with just a manual Bridgeport and no CNC. Truly artists of their craft IMO.
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Coincidently, I voted against unionizing that plant. I and most other employees felt that we had a pretty good deal going already, and we did.
(bill) I agree. I am not straight against the union. I think each circumstance needs to be evaluated on it's own merit. In some cases a union may be the best thing and in other cases unions can just be a leach on a struggling company.
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So, you agree that it is not just all one thing.
(bill) For sure. It is a combo of poor management and high costs to manufacture among others. We are a supplier for Ford and they are in disarray at times. Since they have had a hard time cutting fat in hourly help they have went after white collar employees with the chopping blocks. They retired many old school engineers and cut staff in this area. This attempt to save money has back fired on them as I believe it was a direct effect on so many recalls that Ford has seemed to have of late. It is a red tape nightmare just to get a print change through the Ford system. You could be working with a Ford engineer on a project one day and the very next day a new engineer has taken his place and many times he comes to the project with no previous involvement in it so you have to start from scratch so to speak. You might work with this engineer for a couple weeks and boom he is just gone and a new one has taken his place. It is insane... The Japanese do not do this. They higher college grads and train them and plan on keeping them for life. That is their approach while Ford tosses around engineers like dime store candy.
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Certainly some of the unions are too full of themselves;
(bill) UAW being first on my list.
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almost like a political party.
(bill) I would say political parties. If we are honest we have to conclude that both parties do think that their own stuff does not stink, ever. They both have there fair share of characters and bozos.
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And much of the rot starts at the top on both sides of the table.
(bill) Oh I agree. The overpaid CEO and overpaid head union steward are a big part of the problem. Heck, I don't blame the hourly UAW worker. If they wanted to pay me up to 120K for pushing a button on a robot and all I have is a high school degree then my behind is at GM or Ford filling out an application that day.
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So short sighted to dedicate so much production to heavy vehicles. They sell, but to whom?
(bill) If the trucks are sitting on the lot then I would agree. But Ford sold 130,000 F-150s last July alone. Someone is buying all these trucks.
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Not to people who can afford nothing fancier than a Honda or Toyota, and these are in the majority, by far.
(bill) You would think, but the fact remains that these big trucks sell. It amazes me to no end that they can sell 130,000 pickups in one month with gas at $2.50/gal the whole month long. Most of these are nice trucks as well. A fully loaded F-150 would easily be 30K or up. An average one would be around 25K or higher. Then when you factor in record sales for new homes. I don't know where these people get all their money. Must explain all the dept that Americans like to keep themselves in. I drive a 95 neon with 150,000mi back and forth to work as I refuse to waste my money on a new car or truck. I don't see the point. You buy a new car or truck for 25K lets say. You pay on it for 5 years so you really pay 35k of higher for the car or truck when it is all said and done. Then you go try to sell it or trade it in and the thing is now worth 6K or there abouts. No thanks.
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And in the long run, they are where the money is. Henry Ford knew that well, and it was his Models T and A (*hehehe*) that would spell his success.
(bill) Well that and he no competition. Henry Ford is one reason we needed the UAW to begin with.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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