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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 03/22/2006 : 13:10:32 [Permalink]
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beskeptical wrote: quote:
If you want to focus on the insult to individual Republicans instead of the hypocrisy of the Party you are missing the point.
If you are going to think in such broad generalizations, the Democratic party is just as absurd and hypocritical. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 13:12:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Why can't we all just get along? 
I don't mind the criticisms. I will have to address Martha's later tonight as I have an appointment. I appreciate the other response to the list, though. I'll have to do less leg work for specific citations.
I actually find the list quite factual, minus the Cheney joke. It may be somewhat overstated for the humor, but the hypocrisy of the Republicans is so blatant I am shocked that this list is questioned so vigorously. As to being a liberal, Martha, I'll have to look more closely at your post. I haven't gotten that impression from your previous posts so perhaps I am missing something. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 13:16:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
beskeptical wrote: quote:
If you want to focus on the insult to individual Republicans instead of the hypocrisy of the Party you are missing the point.
If you are going to think in such broad generalizations, the Democratic party is just as absurd and hypocritical.
Right now the Democratic Party is spineless but the Party members are stirring. There is no way they match the Republicans in the scale of their hypocrisy, absolutely no way. I'll be happy to debate this with you. I haven't read all the posts here but if they don't include examples of Democratic hypocrisy, post some specifics. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 18:10:08 [Permalink]
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Ricky wrote: quote:
Executing a cold blooded killer is wrong, but killing an innocent fetus just because you don't want to have to deal with it is right.
Keep in mind, we are talking about broad generalizations, as marf put it.
This is exactly how I meant my criticisms to be taken, and I think that is a perfect example of a criticism of Democrats that is just as dumb as most of the ones of Republicans in this list.
I never said I took the Republican or Democratic stance on any of the issues addressed in the list. So I don't know why my personal political leanings would make a difference. But for the record, I am pro-Roe, pro-universal-health-care, anti-war in Iraq, pro-sex ed that includes condoms, pro-chuch/state separation, anti-school vouchers, and pretty much on the liberal side of most other issues. The only exceptions I can think of are that I'm anti-most gun control, I think "hate crimes" are bad legislation, and I'm largely pro-globalization. There, have I defended my liberal honor sufficiently? ;-)
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2006 : 04:21:48 [Permalink]
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Well I'll start on these but if I need to cite links I'll have to get to them later. And I haven't read the rest of the posts here so this may be redundant.quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
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1. Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton. -Can you please quote the Party leaders who have said, in official Repupublican capacity, that “Jesus loves you” and you should hate homosexuals and Hillary Clinton?
Bush Jr has totally transformed the grant criteria for the entire government from the CDC to the DOD. You can find a "faith based" web page for every major federal department, literally, as well as find millions of dollars in grants directed to not just churches, but Evangelical Churches. In addition, grants to any groups that support gays or are not of the Bush religious mindset have had their programs cut. Bush ran on one platform that was a Constitutional amendment prohibiting gay marriage if the states passed laws allowing it. Bush is still friends with Pat Robertson and has had met with him even after Robertson went on about hurricanes being God's wrath for cities that supported gays.
The Hillary thing was just making the statement more satirical. Obviously the Republicans are already Clinton bashing even before she announces any run for the Presidency.
quote:
2. Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when
Bush's daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with
him, and a bad guy when Bush needed a "we can't find Bin Laden" diversion. –Qualify “good” and “bad”. ...You can argue that the support of Saddam in the past was a mistake (mistake meaning that it didn't achieve the intended aims and caused other political problems in the long run), but it was a calculated political stance that had reasons behind it. I would agree with you that it was a mistake, but to argue that it is hypocrisy is to painfully simplify the issues.
Wow! This viewpoint couldn't be more opposite from mine. So are you saying supporting Saddam when it's politically convenient and attacking him when it's again convenient isn't hypocritical?
I am not simplifying any issues here. I have been opposed to the horrible things our government has done in other countries for the supposed political gains since the Vietnam war. And Reagan was one of the worst Presidents for murder and torture of innocent poor people in Central America that we've had. All those fools who think he was a great President disgust me. I was in Central America when CIA trained death squads were leaving beheaded bodies in the streets at night. And the School of the Americas is still in business today teaching torture and terrorism tactics to keep dictators in power for political gains. The history of US and British interventions in he Middle East since 1900 is a big part of the reason we are in the situation we are in today.
More specifically to current events, the gassing of Kurds brought no condemnation when we supported Saddam in the 80s. You know the rest. If that isn't hypocrisy then what is? Mistakes have nothing to do with the convenience of the Republican administration to have Saddam be a friend or foe depending on their particular selfish goals at the time.
This is only a fraction of the rant this subject brings up in me.
quote:
3. Trade with Cuba ...
Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/23/2006 17:27:13 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2006 : 09:37:48 [Permalink]
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Okay doky…
First off, this thread probably should have been posted in the humor folder. The list paints with very broad strokes, which is what humorists often do. These are over-generalizations for humor sake. They make a point too. But even as a liberal, I could make up a list that would be just as unflattering to those of us who's politics tend toward the liberal side of things.
Clearly, as Marfknox points out there are many shades of conservatism and I doubt that the list was created to reflect that since it wouldn't be funny if it did.
On the other hand, asking if Marf is a republican simply because she objected to the list was uncalled for in my opinion. She has posted here long enough for us to know where she stands on many issues and is clearly on the liberal side of things. And even if she were a republican, that would not be cause to dismiss any objections she has to the list. So I find that particular bit of fact finding irrelevant and very close to an ad hom.
I have no real problem with the list. I think it generally reflects many of the hypocrisies that seem a part of the republican machine of late. I also have no problem with someone pointing out that the list could be a distortion by overgeneralization of what every republican thinks is true. Since when is political humor above criticism?
That said, I think the current debate in this thread is silly.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2006 : 10:48:05 [Permalink]
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I appreciate your comments, Kil.
I posted my initial criticisms because I am a liberal and I have hung in a lot of liberal circles, and in my experience, tons of them have nothing more than the rhetoric of this list to back their opinions. There is, no doubt, a lot of Republican hypocrisy. Part of the way Republicans keep power is by keeping the party line consistent with sound-bite talking points and rhetoric that all the players and supporters of the party are briefed on. I despise that aspect of politics, and that's why I react when liberals do the same thing. This list might be a joke, and it might have kernels of truth throughout, but that doesn't change the fact that it is rhetoric, and it is lame. That is all I meant.
Further debate is, as Kil says, is silly. If someone disagrees with me, fine. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 03/23/2006 10:49:35 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2006 : 17:22:49 [Permalink]
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I gave it a 50:50 as to posting it here or in the humor forum. And, I'm a bit taken aback by the reaction. But I think the list reflects the current Party leadership and the members put the leaders in power. Obviously one who doesn't view the current politics as I do is going to take the list differently. But anyone choosing to be offended by it as opposed to just not seeing it that way seems to me to be over reacting.
And my question about the political leaning of Marf was legit despite what anyone thinks. There's no way that was meant as an ad hominem. Last night I was even thinking about starting a thread on what we all viewed as liberal and conservative both in beliefs about themselves and in practice. I guess I'll wait a bit but I think it would be interesting.
I think I understand your position here Marf. I don't agree at all. I think Democrats need to call the Republicans on their lies, bad decisions and outright hypocrisy. The fact our Party leaders are wimps is hurting us. And it couldn't be more important to stand up to this bunch than it is right now.
Further debate over the OP isn't necessary. But if the method of speaking out interests you, feel free to start a new thread.
I may start a thread on the scale of corruption, cronyism, and hypocrisy that distinguishes today's Republican leadership from anything the Democrats have done in my lifetime. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/23/2006 17:29:54 |
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