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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 04/05/2006 : 20:44:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Ah yes; Bill O'Reilly. Not a very impressive reference on any topic.
It's not about O'Reilly. Gee! It's like waving a red flag to some people who have their minds made up, if one mentions republican or far right, any of those Keywords then they don't want to listen beyond that. It's not about France, or one country or another.
It's about logic. Look at what's happening with GM. Unions ruin everything. People expect too much. Give me, give me.
For example, the minimum wage, similar to not being able to fire someone, can't you see how that hurts workers and businesses more than helps. (as much as some people want to hate anyone who owns a business, they do provide the jobs, they take the risks).
Would you rather have two people working at a high wage rather than several at a fair one? If a job doesn't pay enough and no one applies, the employer will know he should pay more, the government shouldn't make him pay. Likewise if he is forced to pay more he won't hire as many people and those willing to work won't have a job. Why can't the government realize that and stay out of everyones lives?
quote:
It's about logic. Look at what's happening with GM. Unions ruin everything. People expect too much. Give me, give me.
"The automaker expects to spend $5.6 billion -- about $1,600 a vehicle -- on health care this year, far more than Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. and other foreign rivals."
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0503/24/A01-127736.htm
From the Detroit Free Press:
"Delphi Corp. -- the employer in bankruptcy of 14,700 Michiganders -- said a new study it commissioned shows it pays its unionized workers $76 an hour including benefits, double what its competitors pay, and $11 an hour more than workers received in 2004."
"Terry Wilson admits he is overpaid, but he said it's Delphi's fault."
"The 48-year-old UAW hourly worker makes $29 an hour at Delphi's Flint plant producing air filters. Wilson has worked for Delphi for 18 years. Two years ago, before his plant started cutting back on overtime, Wilson made $90 an hour on some holidays".
"I've pretty much written my own check for the past 10 years," Wilson said. "It was pretty cool. You come in on any given Sunday, work 20 hours for $60 an hour, and not do a hell of a lot."
"In 2004, Wilson received nearly $80,000, including overtime. He can rattle off coworkers who received $120,000 last year."
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051126/BUSINESS01/511260313/1002/BUSINESS&template=printart
Most UAW jobs are not high tech jobs. Most are pushing cycle buttons on a robot who does all the asembly work for them. Some might install a bolt or put on a nut while the car rolls down the line. I know, I work for a supplier and have been to many UAW plants when they have a problem with our parts. All while they are pulling in as much as $120 g's.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 16:31:30 [Permalink]
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Snake said:
quote:
It's about logic.
As if you, or Bill, or Bill, know anything about logic...
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 21:59:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Snake said:
quote:
It's about logic.
As if you, or Bill, or Bill, know anything about logic...
Thank you for your very intelligent remark, that proves again how wonderful it is to exchange ideas with people who think like you. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2006 : 00:31:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Thank you for your very intelligent remark, that proves again how wonderful it is to exchange ideas with people who think like you.
Now it is somehow offensive to point out things that you and Bill have clearly demonstrated here, multiple times?
Neither one of you have the faintest grasp of even the most rudimentary logic. Don't get pissed at me for pointing it out to you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2006 : 04:52:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Snake said:
quote:
It's about logic.
As if you, or Bill, or Bill, know anything about logic...
Thank you for your very intelligent remark, that proves again how wonderful it is to exchange ideas with people who think like you.
quote:
Thank you for your very intelligent remark, that proves again how wonderful it is to exchange ideas with people who think like you
That is just dude being dude. He can be a real treat sometimes and is always good for a nice chuckle. I really miss he and marf going at it. Those were funny posts... |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2006 : 07:44:50 [Permalink]
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Boy, is this discussion falling apart or what? And I was hoping it would turn out to be an intelligent debate about economic policy. :-(
Bill wrote: quote:
OK, you, and your fellow skeptics, need to pay a little bit better attention here. The point of the piece was the crazy French labor laws and how the US libs love them.
While Chippewa and pleco took some cheap shots and mischaracterized a criticism of some of France's policies as "belittling", Ghost Skeptic brought up economic problems and policies of the US that could be considered to bring equally dire future consequences. Why didn't you respond to Ghost? Why don't you treat people on this forum as individuals, Bill, instead of just grouping us all together as "fellow skeptics"?
To Fripp and Dude - I think you both helped bring the conversation down a level. Fripp accused Bill of "non-sequiter thinking" among other flaws, and Dude accused both Snake and Bill of illogic, but none of the insults were in specific reference to statements in this thread. If you're too lazy to bother actually backing up your criticisms and keep them relavent, why do you bother at all? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/08/2006 07:45:44 |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2006 : 12:21:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
...While Chippewa and pleco took some cheap shots and mischaracterized a criticism of some of France's policies as "belittling"...
You confuse "cheap shots" with parody. My post was in response to a bunch of real cheap shots at the beginning of in Bill's initial post, and I did not even comment on the last part.
quote:
marfknox
Boy, is this discussion falling apart or what? And I was hoping it would turn out to be an intelligent debate about economic policy. :-(
I was hoping it would turn into a Broadway musical, with a racy can-can finale!
Bill later wrote: quote:
...The point of the piece was the crazy French labor laws and how the US libs love them.
Then write: I think French labor laws are crazy and I suspect US liberals favor them. Let's discuss it. Without ties to a rightwing scapegoat of the entire country of France and U.S. liberals. Then people here might ask: All U.S. liberals favor French laws? Which liberals? Which French labor laws? How is France different from the United States in size, history and culture so that their labor laws differ? What works in France and what doesn't? etc...
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2006 : 12:57:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
You confuse "cheap shots" with parody. My post was in response to a bunch of real cheap shots at the beginning of in Bill's initial post, and I did not even comment on the last part.
And I just wanted to pile on...
seriously though, this conservative attack on France all started when the French did not back us on the unjust and immoral invasion of Iraq. I think the conservatives are miffed that the Frenchies may have been right and will now take any chance at attacking the French...and if they can link them with the dreaded "liberal" all the better. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2006 : 13:46:37 [Permalink]
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Chippewa wrote to Bill: quote:
Then write: I think French labor laws are crazy and I suspect US liberals favor them. Let's discuss it. Without ties to a rightwing scapegoat of the entire country of France and U.S. liberals. Then people here might ask: All U.S. liberals favor French laws? Which liberals? Which French labor laws? How is France different from the United States in size, history and culture so that their labor laws differ? What works in France and what doesn't? etc...
I'm a little confused. Bill originally wrote: quote:
Maybe all the far left fundies can just move to France? They would be much happier I am sure...
"The French government is now a giant colossus that employs more than 25% of the entire French population! Paris pays for health care, provides lucrative pensions, subsidizes a lot of housing, and has set up a 35-hour work week. In fact, it is illegal in France for any company employee to work more than 44 hours a week.
Viva la France!
There's just one downside to this labor paradise; France is running out of money. As the population ages, the government is not going to be able to pay the freight."
A core holding of the far-left portfolio is "income redistribution," where the government imposes sky-high taxes on the affluent and then gives the money in the form of entitlements to the less well-off. Thus, the liberal hatred of "tax cuts for the rich."
And sure, he used some strong and annoying rhetoric like "far left fundies" and he sarcastically suggested all liberals move to France, but it seemed pretty clear to me that he was criticizing France's socialistic economic policies in general for the purpose of starting a debate about them. His "cheap shots" were probably for the purpose of provoking debate. At least that's how I read it. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2006 : 14:52:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Neither one of you have the faintest grasp of even the most rudimentary logic. Don't get pissed at me for pointing it out to you.
Usually I wouldn't answer a post like yours here but wanted to let you know you sound like an idiot when you make remarks like that. And I really wanted to let you know if you mean by 'pissed' you think I'm angry that someone who sounds like an idiot would say that, then you really don't understand what I'm saying. Like Bill said, you are amusing. So go ahead and keep talking. I can always use a good laugh. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 08:39:10 [Permalink]
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Snake said:
quote:
Usually I wouldn't answer a post like yours here but wanted to let you know you sound like an idiot when you make remarks like that.
Yeah, people get pissed off when you point out their shortcomings to them. Often they resort to insulting the criticizing party to defend themselves. Looks like you have that part down.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 11:19:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
...this conservative attack on France all started when the French did not back us on the unjust and immoral invasion of Iraq. I think the conservatives are miffed that the Frenchies may have been right and will now take any chance at attacking the French...and if they can link them with the dreaded "liberal" all the better.
I think that is central to it. Also, Germany was equally critical at that time (though I recall a news report that they sent mobile hospitals, but not troops.) However, there was next to no criticism from the Republican right and no anti-Germany PR campaign. Perhaps the reason was Germany's more robust economic investments in America, i.e. BMW has an assembly plant here and there are German investments in U.S. industry whereas France no longer markets French cars and their heavy industry here. This may not be completely accurate as the French also manufacture outstanding helicopters which we buy. Nevertheless I get the feeling that France was bullied because they refused to support the invasion of Iraq and perhaps because their weaker economic influence made them another Republican scapegoat. The conservatives look at the world and current history (including 9/11) from the standpoint of 'how can we benefit politically from this?'
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 11:53:56 [Permalink]
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| Chippewa - the French have always been stereotyped as "weak", as have liberals. So it is rather easy for the cons to equate the two. Germany and Russia are viewed as "strong", so not as much criticism there. The cons can go after France rather easily with little fear of challenge. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2006 : 20:56:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
And sure, he used some strong and annoying rhetoric like "far left fundies" and he sarcastically suggested all liberals move to France, but it seemed pretty clear to me that he was criticizing France's socialistic economic policies in general for the purpose of starting a debate about them. His "cheap shots" were probably for the purpose of provoking debate. At least that's how I read it.
What he should have done was backing up his claims with references. As it stands, I believe it's just plain bullshit.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 00:39:46 [Permalink]
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| One of my clients is a Calgary based company that is the fourth largest oil producer in France and they are often frustrated by the problems caused by the unwillingness of the French to work the outrageous overtime that is common in the Canadian oil patch. However, they believe the French have it right. It doesn't make sense to work your brains out so you can afford crap you don't need. A shorter work week reduces unemployment and with the future of the earth threatened by global warming, it makes sense to work less, consume less and enjoy life more. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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