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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/07/2006 : 02:37:11
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It seems that there is yet another gospel that, for whatever reason, was left out of the Bible: the Gospel of Judas. quote:
he National Geographic Society has been part of an international effort, in collaboration with the Maecenas Foundation for Ancient Art and the Waitt Institute for Historical Discovery, to authenticate, conserve, and translate a 66-page codex, which contains a text called James (also known as First Apocalypse of James), the Letter of Peter to Philip, a fragment of a text that scholars are provisionally calling Book of Allogenes, and the only known surviving copy of the Gospel of Judas.
The Gospel of Judas gives a different view of the relationship between Jesus and Judas, offering new insights into the disciple who betrayed Jesus. Unlike the accounts in the canonical Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, in which Judas is portrayed as a reviled traitor, this newly discovered Gospel portrays Judas as acting at Jesus' request when he hands Jesus over to the authorities.
I don't know what this signifies, if anything.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 04/07/2006 : 07:53:24 [Permalink]
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| If Judas was a willing "martyr" for Jesus, doesn't that kind of put the whole sacrifice thing by Jesus into a different perspective? It would also demonstrate that the New Testament is in error...this would give some probs for the fundies. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 08:04:34 [Permalink]
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This reminds me of a Science Fiction story I read a long time ago (I think it was in an Omni anthology) called "The Way of Cross and Dragon" the narrator was the chief inquisitor for the Catholic Church who was sent to investigate a planet where they considered Judas to be a saint and believed that he was asked by Jesus to betray him. This story had an excellent conspiracy theory explaining of the origin of religions which would interest skeptics.
I think a lot of these "Gnostic" gospels were suppressed by the church because they did not suit the church authorities. (The role of women and reduced importance of the clergy for example.) |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 09:56:17 [Permalink]
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I wrote a rap for my homie in Korea who doesnt get much American news, here goes...
Dont call it a comeback!
Gospel of Judas, bustin' out old school
Not a traitor, not even a greedy fool..
Judas was my nigga, a friend and the man.
The only apostle to really know the plan.
Said, the son of God, the miracle weaver
Its time to end, the playa hating fever.
(Chorus)
Shout it, Down with Constantine!
Roman killer, the OG Byzantine.
He took the word of God and made it into paper.
Later to find, those words we're full of craters. Ugh!
(Repeat chorus)
(Edit add new verse)
Some people say, such talk is a sin,
they havent read the Gospel of Magdelene
Shes been lost with Matthew and the Truth
brought back to life by Gnostic super sleuths
They've been dissed by the ages and the Right,
not qualified to preach the Jesus fight.
--
Man Im like some Christian rap G-D or something, a somewhat blasphemus G-d but hey we G-ds get leeway right? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 04/07/2006 11:06:14 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 12:47:16 [Permalink]
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| For some reason I bet this won't be talked about much in the local Baptist/AoG etc. churches this Sunday. I also don't see this gospel being added to the NT ever. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2006 : 00:59:49 [Permalink]
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The story is getting some legs. quote:
Gospel of Judas inspires awe, wrath
Some see a teaching moment
By Charles A. Radin, Globe Staff | April 8, 2006
Parishioners at morning Mass at St. John Chrysostom church in West Roxbury were buzzing yesterday over news reports about the release of the Gospel of Judas, which some scholars suggest could revolutionize people's understanding of early Christianity.
In his homily, the priest explained that the Catholic Church of today rejects the Gospel of Judas, just as it did in the early centuries of Christianity. The main reason, he said, is that the text asserts that salvation comes through special knowledge imparted by Christ to select people during his time on earth. Catholics and many other Christians believe that salvation comes through the death and resurrection of Jesus.
''These gospels emphasize knowledge that initiates have and others do not," Michael said, recapping his homily in a telephone interview yesterday afternoon. ''Jesus made a wide-open gift of salvation to humanity. In the real Christian tradition, salvation comes through faith."
Clergymen, theologians, and scholars reacted with elation, caution, and occasionally anger yesterday to the reports flooding the media -- stoked by a massive National Geographic Society public relations campaign -- that the reclaimed Gospel of Judas could, as one leading scholar put it, ''turn everything on its head." National Geographic announced in Washington on Thursday that a team of researchers had restored, authenticated, and translated the text, which dates back to roughly the second century.
Numerous parishioners came to Michael after the West Roxbury Mass to thank him for taking up the topic, which has created confusion. The New Testament includes four gospels -- Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John -- and some at Michael's church wondered how to view the Judas manuscript in relation to the Christian Bible they were taught.
''People are wondering; people have questions," Michael said. ''Clearly it behooves us as priests to address this."
I think that the Gospel of Judas will inspire some very interesting discussion amongst the more sincere of the believers and fits of apoplexy amongst the idiots. I am now waiting to hear the idiot's take on it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2006 : 06:50:51 [Permalink]
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| I'm glad this discovery is being widely publicized because I hope it will inspire more Christians to be curious about early Christianity and read more about it. But while I personally think this is a very interesting and unique find, it is just one more piece of evidence on the pile that shows that what became the dominent Christian Church (before it later split into Eastern/Western, and then Catholic/Protestant) eventually censored, supressed, and destroyed its competitors. Many Christians today think that is proof that mainstream Christian theology today utilizes correct interpretations of the true scriptures, but considering how often in Christian and Jewish history there is talk of the true believers being an oppressed minority, the might proves us right argument seems rather silly. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2006 : 12:15:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
...the reclaimed Gospel of Judas could, as one leading scholar put it, ''turn everything on its head." ...
...The New Testament includes four gospels -- Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John -- and some at Michael's church wondered how to view the Judas manuscript in relation to the Christian Bible they were taught.
...
Apparently they haven't read the official 4 gospels very closely, or they would realize that they already have a mess of contradictory nonsense. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2006 : 12:16:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I wrote a rap for my homie in Korea who doesnt get much American news, here goes...
Dont call it a comeback!
Gospel of Judas, bustin' out old school
Not a traitor, not even a greedy fool..
Judas was my nigga, a friend and the man.
The only apostle to really know the plan.
Said, the son of God, the miracle weaver
Its time to end, the playa hating fever.
(Chorus)
Shout it, Down with Constantine!
Roman killer, the OG Byzantine.
He took the word of God and made it into paper.
Later to find, those words we're full of craters. Ugh!
(Repeat chorus)
(Edit add new verse)
Some people say, such talk is a sin,
they havent read the Gospel of Magdelene
Shes been lost with Matthew and the Truth
brought back to life by Gnostic super sleuths
They've been dissed by the ages and the Right,
not qualified to preach the Jesus fight.
--
Man Im like some Christian rap G-D or something, a somewhat blasphemus G-d but hey we G-ds get leeway right?
Um, don't quit your day job BPS.  |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2006 : 13:13:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
If Judas was a willing "martyr" for Jesus, doesn't that kind of put the whole sacrifice thing by Jesus into a different perspective? It would also demonstrate that the New Testament is in error...this would give some probs for the fundies.
Well, pleco, it suggests that some early Christians were already pondering how to address some very difficult questions. For instance, if it was necessary for Jesus to die for us sinners to be cleansed, then isn't it the case that we should be celebrating those people who helped facilitate it? Obviously some such people interpreted such things in that light, and crafted a tale (or more likely pieced together various strands already present in the early Christian traditions) to fit with that argument. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2006 : 13:47:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think a lot of these "Gnostic" gospels were suppressed by the church because they did not suit the church authorities.
The official 4 gospels are just the ones that the catholic church chose to use. They have, according to a Jesuit friend of mine, aprox 90 "gospels". The 4 included in the bible are just the 4 that most closely match "official" doctrine. The rest vary to much from the "official 4" to have been included.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2006 : 13:48:59 [Permalink]
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Dude wrote: quote:
They have, according to a Jesuit friend of mine, aprox 90 "gospels".
Just so I make sure I read this correctly; do you mean to say that your friend told you the Catholic Church has in its possession about 90 ancient gospels that it is not sharing with the world? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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trogdor
Skeptic Friend
198 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2006 : 15:15:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I wrote a rap for my homie in Korea who doesnt get much American news, here goes...
Dont call it a comeback!
Gospel of Judas, bustin' out old school
Not a traitor, not even a greedy fool..
Judas was my nigga, a friend and the man.
The only apostle to really know the plan.
Said, the son of God, the miracle weaver
Its time to end, the playa hating fever.
(Chorus)
Shout it, Down with Constantine!
Roman killer, the OG Byzantine.
He took the word of God and made it into paper.
Later to find, those words we're full of craters. Ugh!
(Repeat chorus)
(Edit add new verse)
Some people say, such talk is a sin,
they havent read the Gospel of Magdelene
Shes been lost with Matthew and the Truth
brought back to life by Gnostic super sleuths
They've been dissed by the ages and the Right,
not qualified to preach the Jesus fight.
--
Man Im like some Christian rap G-D or something, a somewhat blasphemus G-d but hey we G-ds get leeway right?
noice. I once heard a cristian ghetto rap song that was sapposed to, in it's words "dis evilution". Some lines I remember:
"They call us Jesus freaks
but when he die we go to heven and be jesus's peeps" |
all eyes were on Ford Prefect. some of them were on stalks.
-Douglas Adams |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2006 : 16:41:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
If Judas was a willing "martyr" for Jesus, doesn't that kind of put the whole sacrifice thing by Jesus into a different perspective? It would also demonstrate that the New Testament is in error...this would give some probs for the fundies.
Well, pleco, it suggests that some early Christians were already pondering how to address some very difficult questions. For instance, if it was necessary for Jesus to die for us sinners to be cleansed, then isn't it the case that we should be celebrating those people who helped facilitate it? Obviously some such people interpreted such things in that light, and crafted a tale (or more likely pieced together various strands already present in the early Christian traditions) to fit with that argument.
I also wondered why Judas was hated, since without him the whole thing would not have happened. But, it also meant that he had no free will, because that was what he was supposed to do...but I digress.
I agree that is the most like scenario. That the church suppresses these other stories is the most significant part. Control of knowledge = control of minds.
It will still cause headaches for the fundies, not that I'm unhappy with that. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 01:07:35 [Permalink]
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There is something very funny about a bunch of atheists and agnostics (myself included) discussusing a recently discovered gnostic gospel 
There was a sort of Gnostic Revival in France in the 10th through 14th centuries called Catharism. They were of couse brutally suppressed by the Catholic chuch in the Languedoc Crusade. I don't know if they had much access to the Gnostic gopspels, they may have made most of it up. They believed the Catholic church was worshipping the wrong god (Satan), a reasonable assupmtion given the behaviour of the Catholic church.
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"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 05:27:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Dude wrote: quote:
They have, according to a Jesuit friend of mine, aprox 90 "gospels".
Just so I make sure I read this correctly; do you mean to say that your friend told you the Catholic Church has in its possession about 90 ancient gospels that it is not sharing with the world?
Yes, due to their being declared heretical at various times. However, the Church, ever waiting for devine guidance but not looking too hard for it, keeps copies around just in case they are later accepted as misinterpreted. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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