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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 04/11/2006 : 21:50:53
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... what this jerkoff would have to say about people who wanted to speak out against christians?
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-na-christians10apr10,0,6596503.story
I hope she gets her way. Then she'd have to sit down and shut the fuck up when somebody wanted to be intolerant of her religion.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 21:56:52 [Permalink]
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This line made me laugh. 
quote:
"Think how marginalized racists are," said Baylor, who directs the Christian Legal Society's Center for Law and Religious Freedom. "If we don't address this now, it will only get worse."
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 23:28:21 [Permalink]
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I often hear that this type of reaction by christians is evident of a religious group losing their previously priviledged position in American society. I can only hope. It's about god damned time.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 00:11:02 [Permalink]
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| Matt- I was going to post the exact same quote and comment. That line is killer! |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 00:14:20 [Permalink]
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| This article reminds me a bit of a Daily Show interview where they talked with a Christian pharmacist who was in trouble for refusing to fill a perscription for the morning after pill. The guy obviously thought he was being interviewed by someone on his side, and at some point the interviewer said something like, "Yeah, the government shouldn't be making that choice for you, you should be making the choice for the woman." The pharmacist just went silent. It was great. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 04:15:01 [Permalink]
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| What is it that makes these idiots think the most important thing they can gripe about is gay people? Starving infants in Darfur just don't rank I guess. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 04:25:29 [Permalink]
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| Suing for the right to be bigoted, hateful, and intolerant? WWJD? Indeed. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 09:39:10 [Permalink]
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Ricky I agree with you that free speech should be protected, but those examples were from specific settings. For instance, inner city public schools do not allow the wearing of gang colors even though not all gang members commit violent acts. Is that intolerance? Should students be allowed to wear t-shirts with racist messages to school? Should schools have no dress code policies because it might limit someone's freedom of expression?
Also, private places of work should be allowed to enforce certain codes of conduct while on the job as well as have mandatory diversity training sessions if that is what the company owners want. The example didn't say whether the person was fired from a private or government job, but I do know that it is a hell of a lot more difficult to be fired from most government jobs, so I'm thinking private.
What policies are used will always be controversial, but are you saying that school and work environments shouldn't be able to have any such policies? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 09:54:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
Evangelicals have been suspended for wearing anti-gay T-shirts to high school, fired for denouncing Gay Pride Month at work, reprimanded for refusing to attend diversity training. When they protest tolerance codes, they're labeled intolerant.
What bullshit.
You want diversity on your campus? Then accept the homophobes and the bigots and the racists. How the fuck can you claim diversity when you won't let people speak their minds? Diversity is about different groups of people intertwining. There is going to be conflict and there are going to be people who are offended. That's the price you have to pay for diversity.
Harassment is one thing, it's against the law for everyone, but being fired for denouncing Gay Pride Month? In the words of Penn and Teller, or rather just Penn, "You don't have the right to not be offended." If someone who is against homosexuality wishes to demonstrate their position, and that offends you, too bad. Just like if I want to demonstrate my pro-choice position and that offends you. There is no difference.
Those who are intolerant of the intolerant are just as intolerant as the intolerant are. Say that 5 times fast.
I would like to remind you that freedom of speech only applies to government. Not private businesses like non-state run colleges.
Intolerant, sure. Violating 1st Amendment rights, no. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 10:52:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Those who are intolerant of the intolerant are just as intolerant as the intolerant are. Say that 5 times fast.
Ricky now your being intolerant of those who are intolerant of the intolerant. Oops. Now I'm being intolerant of the intolerant, intolerance, intol... er ...where was I again?
Just how much intolerance should be tolerated? Sometimes you have too make a stand against the insanity and risk being labled intolerant in turn.
If a pastor were to wear a "Jesus was a fag" T-shirt, how long do you think he'd be 'tolerated'? He'd be fired right quick and justifiably so. |
| Edited by - dv82matt on 04/12/2006 10:54:17 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 13:28:27 [Permalink]
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First, let me clear up the misconception that I am talking about the law. I am not. Schools, public and private, preach diversity, but clearly are not diverse as they ban people from speaking about certain positions they hold on controversial topics. It is the hypocrisy which I am referring to.
Marf, I am of course not saying there should be no limits, but in this case, I believe the limit is way too strict. Diversity is not shutting everyone up who disagrees with you.
quote:
Ricky now your being intolerant of those who are intolerant of the intolerant. Oops. Now I'm being intolerant of the intolerant, intolerance, intol... er ...where was I again?
Not at all. I believe those who are intolerant of the intolerant have the right to speak their mind and demonstrate their viewpoints in public.
quote:
Just how much intolerance should be tolerated?
All of it, until the point where that intolerance goes from words to actions, such as hurting someone or property.
quote:
If a pastor were to wear a "Jesus was a fag" T-shirt, how long do you think he'd be 'tolerated'? He'd be fired right quick and justifiably so.
If you run a private club and someone has ideals that go directly against your club, it isn't wrong to kick them out of it. It is wrong to try to keep them from every talking about the "faginess" of Jesus again.
Edit: I used the word club above mainly to keep it general. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 04/12/2006 13:30:14 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 20:12:25 [Permalink]
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Ricky said:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just how much intolerance should be tolerated?
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All of it, until the point where that intolerance goes from words to actions, such as hurting someone or property.
If you are saying (and I'm not entirely sure you are) that people should be allowed to say whatever they want... then I agree right up to a certain point. You can stand in an empty parking lot and yell "FIRE!", but you can't do it in a theatre. You can say you hate people, but if you advocate any action against them then you have stepped over the line.
Take the radio personalities from Rowanda, who urged people to commit genocide. Do you think they had the right to say what they said, even though they didn't actually kill anyone?
The line is crossed, imo, when you urge others to share your prejudice and to join in any action against others that is discriminatory (based on race, religion, orientation, or any of the nonsense things people hate one another for)...
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 20:15:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
Ricky now your being intolerant of those who are intolerant of the intolerant. Oops. Now I'm being intolerant of the intolerant, intolerance, intol... er ...where was I again?
Not at all. I believe those who are intolerant of the intolerant have the right to speak their mind and demonstrate their viewpoints in public.
Well speaking out 'against' intolerance doesn't strike me as particularly intolerant to begin with.quote:
quote:
Just how much intolerance should be tolerated?
All of it, until the point where that intolerance goes from words to actions, such as hurting someone or property.
So should a teacher at a public school be allowed to teach creationism as part of their right of free speech or would you consider teaching to be an action rather than words? What if the teacher wore a t-shirt that said "Jonny is the stupidest kid I've ever taught in my classroom."? Should he get to keep his job in that case?
quote:
If you run a private club and someone has ideals that go directly against your club, it isn't wrong to kick them out of it. It is wrong to try to keep them from every talking about the "faginess" of Jesus again.
Well I think even public institutions should be allowed to enforce certain standards of conduct. Sure racists have a right to express their racism loudly and in public, but if they do, it may put their job as the school's guidance counsellor in jepordy.
Maybe we just had different takes on what the article indicated was happening eh? I tend to take these claims of persecution with a large grain of salt. If Christians were being fired simply for being caught praying in private on their lunch break, well then I'd totally agree with you. |
| Edited by - dv82matt on 04/12/2006 20:17:29 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 20:53:14 [Permalink]
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I agree with what you said, Dude. When it goes from words to actions, even just speaking of actions, then the line has been crossed.
quote:
Well speaking out 'against' intolerance doesn't strike me as particularly intolerant to begin with.
Speaking out against intolerance isn't intolerant. Passing laws so that the intolerant aren't allowed to speak is.
quote:
So should a teacher at a public school be allowed to teach creationism as part of their right of free speech or would you consider teaching to be an action rather than words? What if the teacher wore a t-shirt that said "Jonny is the stupidest kid I've ever taught in my classroom."? Should he get to keep his job in that case?
Talk about coming from left field. First of all, speaking ones opinion in public and teaching religious doctrine in government schools are two very different things. It's not even almost on topic.
When you insult a child instead of teach them, you are failing in your duties as a teacher, and thus, deserve to be fired. Just like a construction worker who can't use a hammer deserves to be fired.
quote:
Well I think even public institutions should be allowed to enforce certain standards of conduct. Sure racists have a right to express their racism loudly and in public, but if they do, it may put their job as the school's guidance counsellor in jepordy.
If they do so in public and not in school, then why should their jobs be in jepordy? As long as they perform they're full duties as required, what difference does it make what they do on their own time? |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 04/12/2006 20:57:56 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 20:59:45 [Permalink]
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Intolerance cannot be tolerated. Differing viewpoints can be tolerated, but not intolerance itself. If you are tolerant of intolerance, then you are just intolerant yourself, since that's what results from your actions.
Ricky, everyone has the right to an opinion. No one has a "right" to be intolerant. Intolerance means the stifling of an opposing point of view. It is the opposite of free expression.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/12/2006 21:00:30 |
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