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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
 Posted - 11/26/2001 : 15:31:24
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As you may have heard by now, Bush emphatically does not support cloning for stem cells. I happen to think that legislating by personal morality is a bad idea, especially when said morality is arguably myth-based, so imagine my 'surprise' when I hear this from Bush, "[human cloning] is morally wrong. That's my opinion." I happen to think this remark is going to cause him a bunch of trouble. Comments?
There was an earthquake! A terrible flood! Locusts! It wasn't my fault, I swear to god! - Jake Blues
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2001 : 16:07:59 [Permalink]
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Gee Ph, haven't you heard? Shrub is the moral compass for the entire world! Just ask Ashcroft. If it wasn't for them, I'd be sitting here drinking beer and smoking cigarettes. Oops. Okay, end of sarcasm.
As far as the stem cell research goes, I think the US can kiss a lot of R&D goodbye. If I was a medical researcher, I think I'd already be polishing my resume and investing in some Berlitz language tapes. Isn't Bush supposed to have a science advisor? Or is he too busy throwing money at the CIA to fund remote viewing?
In his latest book, Dave Barry pointed out that yes, we pay a lot of taxes, but look at all the entertainment we get in return.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2001 : 16:38:10 [Permalink]
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If it can be done, it WILL, sooner than later, be done, and ethics / morals be damned. (Cleaned up a little puncuation).
The prospect of cloning for procreation makes me a little queasy, but for medical purposes I can see it. It is NOT person; it's a blastocyst!
f
The more I learn about people, the better I like rattlesnakes.
Edited by - filthy on 11/26/2001 16:40:06 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2001 : 17:21:27 [Permalink]
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And the difference between cloning for procreation and medical purposes is what exactly? We allow infertile couples to use artificial insemination and there was a big hullabaloo about that at first. People fear it because it's new and there have been all kinds of scary things written about it. I don't see any problem with it myself and don't see why there should be legislation against it.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2001 : 17:53:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gee Ph, haven't you heard? Shrub is the moral compass for the entire world!
Though this thread is about Bush in particular, let's not forget that his opinion seems to be the majority view of just about every major world government. They're all clamoring to outlaw it.
What's worse, a leader who is against it for personal religious reasons? Or one who is against it because his finger is in the wind? I don't know...
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2001 : 18:01:33 [Permalink]
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Some of us here are old enough to remember the "Louise Brown" case in England. She was the first "test tube" baby. For those of you who haven't heard of it, do a search and read up a little. Good for entertainment, if nothing else. Oh man, did the churches go nuts! They accused scientists of playing god. The end of civilization was predicted, due to his wrath. A merry debate was had by all. Now of course, the whole thing wouldn't elicit a yawn.
This promises to be as much fun. Of course, all the advances will once again take place outside the US. People in this country wishing to take advantage of these advances will go to other countries, taking their cash with them. The medical community will bitch, whine and cry.
When you compare stem cell with the whole "test tube" flap, its history repeating itself. By the time I'm old and gray (okay, older and grayer), the benefits from this research will have been imported, and no one will remember this debate.
If you have a very dark and twisted sense of humour, this whole thing is rather a hoot.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2001 : 18:03:39 [Permalink]
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Actually, cloning in Nature is not all that uncommon. There are quite a few species of lizard, including some Whiptails in the U.S. (Cmenidopohorus) that are parthenogentic. All individuals of the species are female, laying fertil but unfertilized eggs. Perfectly natural.
I feel uncomfortable with human cloning for, if no better reason, than there are other options. A plus might be that the mother won't get multiple babies, as happens occasionly with artificial insemination, but still... I oppose it. Call it a conscience thing.
Medical research is a different story. If, as we've been told, new organs can be 'grown', spinal cord injuries repaired, dieases like St. Vitis Dance (Parkinson's) cured, and so forth, It will benefit our species as a whole. I still maintain that the blastocyst is not a human being, realizing that that statment is strictly a matter of individual interpretation.
luck,
f
The more I learn about people, the better I like rattlesnakes. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2001 : 19:43:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
If, as we've been told, new organs can be 'grown', spinal cord injuries repaired, dieases like St. Vitis Dance (Parkinson's) cured, and so forth, It will benefit our species as a whole.
And you can be damn sure that the same politicians that are opposed to this now will be first in line to take advantage of the benefits of this if it pans out. Stupid hypocrites.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2001 : 20:57:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
If, as we've been told, new organs can be 'grown', spinal cord injuries repaired, dieases like St. Vitis Dance (Parkinson's) cured, and so forth, It will benefit our species as a whole.
And you can be damn sure that the same politicians that are opposed to this now will be first in line to take advantage of the benefits of this if it pans out. Stupid hypocrites.
This gets me as well. Orrin Hatch in favor of ECSR ferchrissake! Wonder what's got him going? I'd have liked to be a fly on the wall at his last checkup.
There was an earthquake! A terrible flood! Locusts! It wasn't my fault, I swear to god! - Jake Blues |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2001 : 21:05:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Actually, cloning in Nature is not all that uncommon. There are quite a few species of lizard, including some Whiptails in the U.S. (Cmenidopohorus) that are parthenogentic. All individuals of the species are female, laying fertil but unfertilized eggs. Perfectly natural.
Forgive my lack of knowledge about this subject, but isn't the process of creating identical twins natural cloning as well?????
"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2001 : 22:08:37 [Permalink]
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It didn't even occur to me before, but the entire process of cloning is not even remotely analagous to ECSR. Recall, in this type of cloning, adult DNA is retrofitted into an ovum which is then basically coaxed into dividing. Now, unless someone wants to argue that God ensouls embryos after the first cell division or something, the controversy should end there. There is absolutely no way that sixteen or so young cells that contain existing adult DNA are collectively a brand spanking new human.
There was an earthquake! A terrible flood! Locusts! It wasn't my fault, I swear to god! - Jake Blues
Edited by - PhDreamer on 11/26/2001 22:09:09 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2001 : 22:15:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Actually, cloning in Nature is not all that uncommon. There are quite a few species of lizard, including some Whiptails in the U.S. (Cmenidopohorus) that are parthenogentic. All individuals of the species are female, laying fertil but unfertilized eggs. Perfectly natural.
Forgive my lack of knowledge about this subject, but isn't the process of creating identical twins natural cloning as well?????
In a trivial sense, I suppose. If you want to call total zygotic division 'cloning,' I guess it would be technically correct. The difference is there's no way of knowing which one is the original (pre-division) zygote. That, to me, is an important part of cloning, as a process.
There was an earthquake! A terrible flood! Locusts! It wasn't my fault, I swear to god! - Jake Blues |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2001 : 09:59:43 [Permalink]
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Dudya also said something to the effect, "Creating life to destory it.., is wrong." *L* Isn't Texas still "cattle country?"
Dunno, the issue of cloning, is a source of unease for me. Not of the science, itself, but in the authority that will oversee it's application. Guess me just don't have all that much confidence in our collective 'wisdom.' What guidelines, criteria, will be used, for what ends, and how will they be selected? Its mute of course, because it will be done, if for no other reason, than to see, if it can be done, like we don't already have enough peoples. The only 'real' question, is, will it be done in "public view?"
In this particular instance, its stated purpose is "therapeutic," and is a limited technological step forward. Although the technique would be the same for creating a whole human clone, the zygote (?) died after forming only three cells, just a minor glitch to be overcomed shortly, am sure. In my limited understanding, the patient would be the donor of these cells, used to create the stem cells, to prevent rejection of whatever therapy is attempted. And the offically "blessed" stem cell lines, are only good for research, not for human insertion. It seems this developement was publicly released, only to force the debate. Will this bio-technologly be allowed to bear fruit in actually treating people? Were me in charge, of course it should be.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2001 : 13:10:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
[font=Arial][size=3]
Dudya also said something to the effect, "Creating life to destory it.., is wrong." *L* Isn't Texas still "cattle country?"
What a great point Nubi.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2001 : 13:14:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
As you may have heard by now, Bush emphatically does not support cloning for stem cells. Comments?
I've not studied much science nor have I yet taken a class in Ethics, however....will someone PLEASE explain what all the fuss is about? I just don't get it.
BIG Deal, cloning...so what!
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2001 : 13:21:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
As far as the stem cell research goes, I think the US can kiss a lot of R&D goodbye. If I was a medical researcher, I think I'd already be polishing my resume and investing in some Berlitz language tapes.
According to Dr. Dean Edel on his radio show yesterday (don't know if it was an orginal broadcast I heard it in the Los Angeles market) he said that's already happening.
quote:
Isn't Bush supposed to have a science advisor?
Must be creation science!
quote:
Or is he too busy throwing money at the CIA to fund remote viewing?
In his latest book, Dave Barry pointed out that yes, we pay a lot of taxes, but look at all the entertainment we get in return.
Lisa
My cousin once told me to read Dave Barry, never got around to it, maybe I should, that's a good one, LOL.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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