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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 11/29/2001 : 12:15:16
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Here's a sampling of what skeptics are up against. Makes me want to [dog]nap the dog and take it to a real doctor. This was from a friend of a friend of my wife's:
quote:
We saw the holistic vet for a recheck today, and she says the allergies
don't seem to be a problem anymore (using the NAET to determine that - the "out there" part of all this - LOL). But the body is still a bit unbalanced, likely because of the allergies and some of the medications used earlier. But much of his symptoms have disappeared, like the raw patches are gone,the nose is not running anymore, and we haven't had anymore infections in his paw.
He's still scratching at his face a bit, and has red, gooky eyes, along with red ears. She noticed that he was hot (panting, red ears, etc.), and says those symptoms are related to the liver (according to Chinese medicine). So she did accupuncture that would support liver function, hoping to help bring the body back into balance.
She looked at the bump on Bosco's mouth, and said the skin is healed, so he can start back with his bitework, but we have to take it slow and build up a callous there to keep it from getting irritated again. Apparently, the bump itself is never going to leave (I have no clue why).
Oh, and since Bosco does agility, she manipulated his back a bit to make
sure everything was ok there, and she also checked for jammed toes. She's a great vet. :)
Best of all, Bosco is showing great improvement! And I haven't given him any antihistamines or any other drugs since our first holistic vet visit a month ago.
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 11/29/2001 12:16:38
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
 Posted - 11/29/2001 : 12:52:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
He's still scratching at his face a bit, and has red, gooky eyes, along with red ears. She noticed that he was hot (panting, red ears, etc.), and says those symptoms are related to the liver (according to Chinese medicine). So she did accupuncture that would support liver function, hoping to help bring the body back into balance.
She looked at the bump on Bosco's mouth, and said the skin is healed, so he can start back with his bitework, but we have to take it slow and build up a callous there to keep it from getting irritated again. Apparently, the bump itself is never going to leave (I have no clue why).
And this dog is getting better? What was it like before? Why can't they take their animals - if they love them - to real vets? Poor puppy, being put through all the crap and not feeling any better.
I love my dog - that's why he sees a real DVM.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 13:34:13 [Permalink]
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Excuse me, but this dog is not getting better. As a matter of fact, it is suffering. Poor puppy. I printed that out to take to my regular vet. She's great. She can never remember my name, but has no problem recognizing my furry companion on sight. When I called her with the news that Heidi was in a "last legs" condition, she was just leaving the office. She canceled her other plans and hung out and waited for me. Dr. Teets is going to go ballistic when I show her this.
It sounds to me like the alternative medicine crowd has found a group that can't complain or write angry letters to Congress. When the fuzzy thinkers take their pets to these quacks and the treatment fails, they can shrug and say, well nothing could be done.
In the case cited above, the dog is obviously running a fever. (Panting, red ears) This pup needs antibiotics now.
They rely on us, trust us, and love us unconditionally. That puts the onus upon us to give them the best care available.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 14:04:03 [Permalink]
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The scary thing is that these people often have children. Imagine what could happen there!!!!!
I'm 30 years old now and am currently on my 3rd dog, the two other ones lived to the ripe old age of 13......and I would have gone hungry before I'd let them go through any pain like that.
"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 14:05:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
It sounds to me like the alternative medicine crowd has found a group that can't complain or write angry letters to Congress
'Real' doctors, be it for humans or other animals don't have all the answers either. There's nothing wrong with trying alternitive medician and herbs. That's where drugs come from anyway.
I don't like doctors because they are insensitive toward people and can damage with their attitude as any other treatment might by a holistic person.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 14:19:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Excuse me, but this dog is not getting better. As a matter of fact, it is suffering. Poor puppy. I printed that out to take to my regular vet. She's great. She can never remember my name, but has no problem recognizing my furry companion on sight. When I called her with the news that Heidi was in a "last legs" condition, she was just leaving the office. She canceled her other plans and hung out and waited for me. Dr. Teets is going to go ballistic when I show her this.
It sounds to me like the alternative medicine crowd has found a group that can't complain or write angry letters to Congress. When the fuzzy thinkers take their pets to these quacks and the treatment fails, they can shrug and say, well nothing could be done.
In the case cited above, the dog is obviously running a fever. (Panting, red ears) This pup needs antibiotics now.
They rely on us, trust us, and love us unconditionally. That puts the onus upon us to give them the best care available.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.
And I wanted to rip the lungs out of the incompetent vet who misdiagnosed kidney stones in my pup for 5 years. (She's a 10yo Austrialian Shepard, but still my puppy.) The only problem I saw and reported was frequent urination and straining to urinate. I got hold of a different vet within the office and 7 pounds of rock was removed that evening. (She acts like a brand new dog.) The amazing part was that her kidneys are unimpaired. I would never think of sending my dog to a holistic vet. TD, your friend needs serious professional help. Without it, "Bosco" is dead and another person gets put on the list of people I would show up at their funeral just to dance gleefully.
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 14:28:25 [Permalink]
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Ah but the difference between pets and kids! Kids can say, "no, I don't feel better, as a matter of fact I feel worse. and the next person who comes at me with an acupuncture needle will probably get hit."
With pets, the owners can engage in some wishful thinking. "Gee, she seems a little better, I think I can see some more spark". When in fact, the animal is suffering.
When I took Heidi in for that final trip to the vet, she couldn't hear, could barely see, had no use of her back legs, and had lost all control of her, um, bodily functions. If someone had suggested a poultice, an acupuncture needle, or a spine re-alignment, I would have hit them.
She was 14 and a half.
There were a couple of people on this board who knew what I was going through at that time. I want to thank you for your sympathy, empathy, and support. I felt so bad when I left the vet's office with that empty collar.
Heidi lived that long because I gave her love, paid attention to her health, and made sure she got the proper vaccinations.
It sickens me that the alternative medicine quacks will try to make a buck off our friends.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 15:01:54 [Permalink]
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I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that bump inside her mouth is an absess. Which would explain the fever. The absess needs drained and the pup needs antibiotics.
The puppy's only going to get worse, more and more lethargic. Eventually, not even the DVM is going to be able to do anything for her. I'd seriously call someone - cause that pup is in serious danger of dying. Especially if nothing is done.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 20:45:44 [Permalink]
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why in the HELL do these people subject their animals to such quackery? Are they so totally unfeeling toward their 'possessions' (can't call them pets...pets are loved by their owners)?
Cruelty toward other people is heinous enough...cruelty to an animal which has been domesticated for generations is beyond belief.
"If in the last few years you haven't discarded a major opinion or acquired a new one, check your pulse. You may be dead." |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 22:11:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
'Real' doctors, be it for humans or other animals don't have all the answers either. There's nothing wrong with trying alternitive medician and herbs. That's where drugs come from anyway.
I don't like doctors because they are insensitive toward people and can damage with their attitude as any other treatment might by a holistic person.
Holistic implies that a whole approach will be taken. Sometimes that may include alternatives to standard medical procedures. While some alternative therapies may be of some value, the reason they are called alternative is they have not been tested, or have not passed testing in the way that standard medical treatments have. Personally, I would not feel comfortable making myself (or my guinea pig) a guinea pig for some unproved therapy. In this case however, I would argue that a holistic approach is not being taken. This Vet is not even considering the "whole" range of medicines, which would include antibiotics. This Vet, from what I have read here, sounds like a full blown Quack. And Quacks are dangerous.
Also, I happen to like my Doctor. He is a good MD. and a fine skeptic too.
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2001 : 00:59:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Also, I happen to like my Doctor. He is a good MD. and a fine skeptic too.
The Evil Skeptic
Kil, might I know who he is? I could use a good doctor. I suffered for 5 years with gall stones because my REAL doctors were skeptical of ME not having real pain. I still don't trust doctors.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2001 : 07:14:50 [Permalink]
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I think experimental medicine is called experimental medicine.
No, real doctors don't have all the answers, but homeopathists and ear candlers have no answers.
quote:
quote:
'Real' doctors, be it for humans or other animals don't have all the answers either. There's nothing wrong with trying alternitive medician and herbs. That's where drugs come from anyway.
I don't like doctors because they are insensitive toward people and can damage with their attitude as any other treatment might by a holistic person.
Holistic implies that a whole approach will be taken. Sometimes that may include alternatives to standard medical procedures. While some alternative therapies may be of some value, the reason they are called alternative is they have not been tested, or have not passed testing in the way that standard medical treatments have. Personally, I would not feel comfortable making myself (or my guinea pig) a guinea pig for some unproved therapy. In this case however, I would argue that a holistic approach is not being taken. This Vet is not even considering the "whole" range of medicines, which would include antibiotics. This Vet, from what I have read here, sounds like a full blown Quack. And Quacks are dangerous.
Also, I happen to like my Doctor. He is a good MD. and a fine skeptic too.
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2001 : 00:36:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
No, real doctors don't have all the answers, but homeopathists and ear candlers have no answers.
I hate to argue with you Rev, but to me homeopaths are not nessasscessarly wrong. They are using herbs and other things that could possibly help. If you mean quacks that intenitionaly use procedures that they know don't work only to get money, that's another story.
I'm just going by the history of medican, all people had at 1st was plants and minerals, when they realized some worked then they kept using them.
Not to change the subject but that's one reason 'pot' is not getting legalized, the drug companies won't make a profit on it.
Don't you think medical doctors want to make a profit so they keep you coming back when they could give you better cures? Look at all the counter indications and side effects on medications and drugs.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art.
Oh, and another thing..... Woody had an ear infection, something common in Cockers. See his cute little self up there in the picture. The vet wanted us to bring him back for a follow up. How much would that have cost? We didn't but the next time we went in for something else I mention that we never came back for the ear thing. She looked in his ear and said it was ok. So you see we didn't have to go back really. I'm on an on line Cocker group and they are always talking about ways to help our 'kids', more helpful then a vet, IMO. Sometimes people WITH the problem can help more then a doctor. Don't worry, if something was seriously wrong we'd go to a real doctor but in my expierence doctors just don't do a good enough job in finding or treating everything.
Edited by - snake on 12/01/2001 00:45:21 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2001 : 01:29:42 [Permalink]
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Snake, the last issue of Skeptical Inquirer had an excellent article on quackery in veterinary medicine. Acupuncture for animals is something espoused by new-ageism. There is no history of acupuncture in ancient China for dogs and cats. Following excerpt is from The Fallacy of 'Traditional Chinese' Veterinary Acupuncture Skeptical Inquirer, Vol 25, No. 4 July/August 2001.
quote:
...The Yuan Heng liaoma ji even quotes the earlier Simu Anji ji to explain not only why horses don't have acupuncture points equivalent to those in humans, but why human midecal practices, including acupuncture, may not be appropriate to the treatment of animals (cited from Guo Huaixi, Xinke zhushi ma niu to jing da quan ji. (newly printed annotated great collection of horse, ox, and camel classics, Beijing: Nongye chuban she, 1988 [orig. 1785], 40):
quote:
Dongxi said: "[...]The needling depressions for horses are not the same as those of humans. Why?" Qu Chuan said: "The human is the divine element among the myriad things. Humans avail of the great movement on Yin and Yang. They receive the choicest aspects of Heaven and Earth. Their bodies are the proper way of the Five Elements. They receive the primeval influences and become replete and fertile. [...]Now, as for animals, they are things. They avail of the partial movement of Yin and Yang. They receive the excess essence of Heaven and Earth and receive the insufficiency of the Five Elements."
So, in the eyes of traditional Chinese medicine, animals are mere "things," and are fundamentally different from human beings. According to these ancient texts, the "depressions"-which modern proponents have interpreted as acupuncture points-are quite different from the acupuncture points found in people.
Acupuncture on animals is a relatively new thing, particularly on dogs and cats. It's quack new ageism at it's finest. These quacks are out to make a buck because there isn't even a basis for this type of treatment. You want to apply a poultice to an absess or use willow bark tea to control a fever - fine. Some of these things work - most don't. This pup - as described by TD - is potentially in serious trouble if she's not taken to a real vet soon. The sign of fever in an animal is as unmistakeable as it is in a human.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2001 : 21:35:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
I hate to argue with you Rev, but to me homeopaths are not nessasscessarly wrong.
Homeopathic is based on the idea that you can treat an ailment by giving a highly diluted dose of an agent that causes the symptoms of problem being treated. Sometimes the dose is so diluted that not even a molecule of the "medicine" remains in the solution. Proponents of homeopathic say that the diluted water retains a memory of the substance supposed to be the cure. It gets better. Somehow, they get the memory water into a pill that retains the memory of the water with the memory of the original substance that was reduced to less than a molecule after dilution. Of course, your are right, there are no side effects. No medicine, no side effects.
Snake, homeopathic are, beyond a possible placebo effect, useless. They are one of the ultimate frauds of the alternative medicine camp.
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Look at all the counter indications and side effects on medications and drugs.
As for herbs and such touted as being natural and therefor safe, that simply is not always true. Consider St. Johns Wart. Taking it can adversely effect AIDs medications. Ginseng can cause a your blood sugar to drop to dangerously low levels. Have you ever seen that on any label of the stuff? I have a very long list of "natural" products side effects and adverse reactions to other drugs. At least with pharmaceuticals, the side affects are mostly known and described. Ephedra has killed people, but that side effect is never on the bottle.
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Don't you think medical doctors want to make a profit so they keep you coming back when they could give you better cures?
I also doubt that doctors are withholding better cures from their patient's in order to make more money. Our average life spans have almost doubled since the advent of modern medicine. That claim belongs in the conspiracy folder.
Snake, as long as you are hanging around a skeptic site maybe you should learn a bit about the billion dollar alternative medicine industry. There is a lot of money being made by hucksters who can market almost anything as a cure simply by calling it a food supplement. While some herbs may be of some value, it does not follow that every one with an herb has a cure for something. Fact is, these claims are usually based on the flimsiest of evidence with the aid of a heaping spoonful of pseudo science.
I suggest you visit this site:
http://www.quackwatch.com/
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2001 : 00:22:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Homeopathic is based on the idea that you can treat an ailment by giving a highly diluted dose of an agent that causes the symptoms of problem being treated.
That's not how I think of it.
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Snake, homeopathic are, beyond a possible placebo effect, useless. They are one of the ultimate frauds of the alternative medicine camp.
I think you might be thinking of them in the different way than I. Perhaps this is a question of the wrong word being used. I don't know the right one. But there are herbs that are helpful and that's where modern medican comes from. There are treatments that one can practice on ones self without the help of a doctor to 'cure' some medical problems.
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As for herbs and such touted as being natural and therefor safe, that simply is not always true.
Did I say safe?
quote:
I also doubt that doctors are withholding better cures from their patient's in order to make more money. Our average life spans have almost doubled since the advent of modern medicine. That claim belongs in the conspiracy folder.
Maybe they are not withholding cures but......
I told you about Woodys doctor telling us to bring him back. That's happened to me several times too. I don't see any reason for an extra 'follow up' visit unless symptoms don't go away. Also many doctors have given me meds that don't work, I don't like having to keep going back if they don't seem to know what they are doing. Or if they do work, that's good enough for me. I don't need to go back to SHOW the doctor I'm better. Don't tell me they aren't making money from those visits
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Snake, as long as you are hanging around a skeptic site maybe you should learn a bit about the billion dollar alternative medicine industry.
Excuse me but does that mean I can only be skeptical of alternative non main stream ideas and only causes that don't seem legitimit? Because DOCTORS are properly trained in estalblished schools one can't be skeptical of them?
quote:
There is a lot of money being made by hucksters who can market almost anything as a cure simply by calling it a food supplement. While some herbs may be of some value, it does not follow that every one with an herb has a cure for something. Fact is, these claims are usually based on the flimsiest of evidence with the aid of a heaping spoonful of pseudo science.
The Evil Skeptic[/quote]
One word to you Kil, Thalidomide(sp.).
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art.
Edited by - snake on 12/03/2001 00:26:40 |
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