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VVolfe347
New Member
Canada
22 Posts |
 Posted - 12/16/2001 : 20:25:34
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Does anyone know anything about a company in Calgary Alberta that has claims to a engine that runs on water (salt water) by turning it into hydrogen and oxygen to burn, It also clains to run a lawn mower engine this way. Any real facts outside of thier own claims?
Dan Foscarini
"The Blind don't lead the blind, People walk around with thier eyes closed"
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Marc_a_b
Skeptic Friend
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2001 : 07:04:24 [Permalink]
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nothing other than water is the product of burning hydrogen & oxygen. So their claims of running on water is the equivilent of saying we got a device that uses ash and smoke as fuel, and produces wood.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2001 : 08:14:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
nothing other than water is the product of burning hydrogen & oxygen. So their claims of running on water is the equivilent of saying we got a device that uses ash and smoke as fuel, and produces wood.
The only thing close to this is Ballard Fuel systems in Canada. It allows Oxygen and Hydrogen to combine across a plate to produce electricity and emits water vapor.
It uses a proton exchange membrane system.
Link to website:
http://www.ballard.com/pem_intro.asp
They tested buses in Chicago for two years with this system. They ran pretty well. They are trying to make it effective in a smaller package and with less expensive parts for consumer consumption.
Report on performance of the system in Vancouver and Chicago bus trials:
http://www.ballard.com/fcb_report.asp
Edited by - valiant dancer on 12/17/2001 08:26:06 |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2001 : 18:51:25 [Permalink]
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VD, isn't that the description of a fuel cell? Those have been in use (in special applications) since the 60's at least.
Marc, actually the case is worse than you suggest, since smoke actually does contain some partially-burned residues that could yield some energy. Water, of course, does not... unless, of course, there's another step in the process (such as hydrolysis), which always requires more energy than can be retrieved from the later recombination of the H and O.
This claim (in the OP) is nothing more or less than a perpetual motion machine. Don't invest!
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2001 : 09:21:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
VD, isn't that the description of a fuel cell? Those have been in use (in special applications) since the 60's at least.
Marc, actually the case is worse than you suggest, since smoke actually does contain some partially-burned residues that could yield some energy. Water, of course, does not... unless, of course, there's another step in the process (such as hydrolysis), which always requires more energy than can be retrieved from the later recombination of the H and O.
This claim (in the OP) is nothing more or less than a perpetual motion machine. Don't invest!
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!"
It is a fuel cell. While surfing, I found this item. It's an idea which is supposed to solve the problem with hydrogen storage on board the fuel cell vehicle. It's pretty neet.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/671414.asp?0dm=V2BDN
Emits water vapor and borax. Not a bad start. I'll look forward to purchacing a vehicle powered by this stuff.
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2001 : 21:00:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
VD, isn't that the description of a fuel cell? Those have been in use (in special applications) since the 60's at least.
Yeah, American spacecraft had them. Hydrogen and oxygen were combined to create electricity, the by-product was water, which was then used for drinking. Problem was, in zero-g a lot of bubbles stayed in the water, leading to a lot of intestinal gas. They never did find a way of using that by-product as a fuel...
;^)
Free speech; excercise it or SHUT UP! |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2001 : 15:42:38 [Permalink]
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Whether you combine it with oxygen in a fuel cell or combine it with oxygen by burning it, where do we get the hydrogen?
If from water, doesn't it take just as much energy to break a water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen as you can get back by recombining them?
If so, then isn't the idea of a car (or anything) "running on water" basically specious, as the water isn't the energy source? We might as well say that the Stanley Steamer "ran on water".
That's not to say that a cleaner method of storing energy for mobile applications than a tank of gasoline is something to sneeze at.
Boris Karloff died for your sins. |
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2001 : 23:42:56 [Permalink]
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At a bit of a tangent: there was a patent issued for a power station comprising the following:
1. Water is elecrolytically seperated into hydrogen and oxygen.
2. The gasses rise up a very tall stack, turning a wind-power type turbine along the way to generate some electricity.
3. At the top of the stack the hydrogen and oxygen are recombined in a conventional engine which also generates electricity.
4. The waste product, water, is captured and falls back to the bottom of the stack where it spins a hydroelectric generator, producing yet more electricity.
The assumption (unsupported by numbers, if I remember correctly) was that the combination of these generators would produce more electricity than was used to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen in the first place. Free electricity! No pollution! Yay!
But why can't I stop giggling?
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes"
Edited by - Dog_Ed on 12/24/2001 23:44:40 |
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seb
New Member
France
40 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2002 : 11:38:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
But why can't I stop giggling?
I guess thermodynamics laws are responsible of this.
Seb |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2002 : 13:04:34 [Permalink]
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There's an office along the Deerfoot, by the airport in Calgary, that I saw the last time I was down. It's for H2Fuel - Alternative fuel systems. Didn't stop in to see if I could get a tour. Maybe next time.
It looked like a nice place from the outside, but so did the Bre-X office....
I don't know if that's the company that the origional post was referring to.
I'm stumblin through the parking lot of an invisible 7-eleven. ZZ-Top |
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VVolfe347
New Member
Canada
22 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2002 : 21:10:10 [Permalink]
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YES, this is the company I'm interested in!
Next time your in the area, if not to much trouble, let me know what you think.
Dan (Wolfe)
quote:
There's an office along the Deerfoot, by the airport in Calgary, that I saw the last time I was down. It's for H2Fuel - Alternative fuel systems. Didn't stop in to see if I could get a tour. Maybe next time.
It looked like a nice place from the outside, but so did the Bre-X office....
I don't know if that's the company that the origional post was referring to.
I'm stumblin through the parking lot of an invisible 7-eleven. ZZ-Top
Dan Foscarini
"The Blind don't lead the blind, People walk around with thier eyes closed" |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2002 : 16:47:54 [Permalink]
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Ok, I'll be down there in a couple of weeks and will let you know what I find.
I'm stumblin through the parking lot of an invisible 7-eleven. ZZ-Top |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2002 : 03:02:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Does anyone know anything about a company in Calgary Alberta that has claims to a engine that runs on water (salt water) by turning it into hydrogen and oxygen to burn, It also clains to run a lawn mower engine this way. Any real facts outside of thier own claims?
Not to change the subject but do you know anything about solar power too?
I'm building a house and would really like to have that but I talked to one company that said it would be $50,000 (unless I didn't hear right). YIKES, I want to save money on my engery bill not go into debt.
If I can burn salt in the water to get the lights on, please explain how.
*
Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2002 : 06:48:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Not to change the subject but do you know anything about solar power too?
I'm building a house and would really like to have that but I talked to one company that said it would be $50,000 (unless I didn't hear right). YIKES, I want to save money on my engery bill not go into debt.
Snake, I think you'd better take a look at it over the long run. Granted, 50 G's is a lot of money, but if you were to take a look at the savings you'd have per month compared to your regular electric bill, I have a feeling you'd be saving a lot.
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your common sense." -Buddha
Edited by - James on 02/25/2002 06:50:47 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2002 : 00:54:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake, I think you'd better take a look at it over the long run. Granted, 50 G's is a lot of money, but if you were to take a look at the savings you'd have per month compared to your regular electric bill, I have a feeling you'd be saving a lot.
Yes, that's exactly what I'd planned. I knew it wouldn't be cheap and was willing to spend several thousand $'s, 10, even 20 thousand but my bills now are I think about $50 a month or a little less, they are combined with the water bill and I haven't itemized it laterly but in the past every two months the combined bill is about $190-200.
50x12=600 and in 20 years that's only $12,000. Even if the new community has higher rates and the price goes up over the years, it would have to more then triple to come near to saving anything. Now, I care as much about the Earth as anyone and for future generations it would be good but there has to be a limit one can sacrifice.
I can't afford it. Do you think that price sounds competitive?
*
Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.
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VVolfe347
New Member
Canada
22 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2002 : 08:58:59 [Permalink]
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Just a note here, I've looked into this before. I found that wind generated electricity was more cost effective then solar. It doesn't matter to a great degree as to the ammount of wind in the area as it does to accomodate what you can get.
Dan Foscarini
"The Blind don't lead the blind, People walk around with thier eyes closed" |
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