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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 07/07/2006 : 11:13:31 [Permalink]
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| Jesus fucking christ, could you be more full of yourself? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 11:59:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
The nature and quality of the picture is befitting the Zip USA feature of National Geographic magazine.
OMG, do you even know what you are talking about?
I'm an excellent photographer and I don't even know if my work would be acceptable for National Geographic. Their standards are extraordinarily high. (LOOK at their magazine - Go to their website - really SEE .... oh why do I even bother )
I'm trying to help and educate you people. To raise your level of appreciation.... Oh well! You can lead a horse to water, etc., etc.
CuriousCreations.com
You know, Norma, art is completely subjective. It really doesn't matter if there is a more correct way to capture an image if the one that was caught pleases people. As a musician, I tend to deconstruct what I hear. Sometimes I think, “that is not correct but it works on some level.” Sometimes rules are made to be broken. And for an amateur, unless he is really concerned about rules, the rules don't really matter.
Ian Anderson, technically, gets too much air when he plays the flute.
Luciano Pavarotti is technically a better singer than Bob Dylan.
Self taught artists like Grandma Moses were looked down upon until the 20th century because they didn't care about the rules.
Gonzo journalism was a shocking departure from correct, objective journalistic writing.
Now, I'm not saying that GeeMack's photo necessarily soars. What I am saying is that your premise is off base. In fact, it is my ability to deconstruct a song, by knowing what a well-constructed song should be, that may sometimes make it difficult for me to appreciate what is there…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 12:52:37 [Permalink]
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Hey. I've been watching American Idol. Now I'm an expert on music, too.
And I say that he can go on to Hollywood! |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 11:37:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
You know, Norma, art is completely subjective.
That's exactly correct.
quote:
It really doesn't matter if there is a more correct way to capture an image if the one that was caught pleases people.
That's somewhat correct but with a little less merit. And again you've missed the point.
quote:
Sometimes rules are made to be broken.
Absolutely. But .......
Why do they, at least the schools I know of, require as the prerequisite, a class in basic art design to be able to study advanced photography?
Because, one must know the rules in order to break them. We all know the joke about someone taking a picture with a telephone pole coming out of a persons head. And there are dozens of other rules that make a picture look nicer, besides don't pose someone in front of a pole. However there might be times when a photographer intentionally wants to take a picture with something amusing sticking out of ones head. Art is after all, communication, it speaks to a select group, and that might be the message the artist wants to convey for that work. There are happy accidents too but there are more lousy shots for not knowing what to do (or how to 'say' it so the message gets across).
Anyone can play music, it's what you are saying, right? Here, I'll give you a tune I just composed. (feel free to use it, I'm not copyrighting it) c# d g e# d a a c c b d. There. I've composed a song just as someone else snaps the shutter on a camera to take a picture. Something's missing, isn't it?
Subjectively, someone might like that tune but with a deeper understanding and knowledge of music of the arts they'd be able to be more discerning of the quality.
As a child I collected horses stuff, statues, pictures, books, anything horse related. I also have a collection of snake related items now. I thought because of my love for the two animals I would want anything that had to do with them but as my knowledge widened I could be more discriminating and choose better quality. I did recently buy a book at the 99 cent store that showed pictures of snakes but it had limited information. I also have books that go into much more details about snakes, their bone structure, digestive system, etc., but they cost more. I recognize the difference and make an informed choice. That's what collectors do as they become more sophisticated, generally they move up in the refinement of their collection. Cheap plastic statues can be nice but expensive bronze that show fine details are considered better. Of course one can specialize in only cheap plastic, that's the subjective part I guess. But knowing the difference that's the important thing.
quote:
And for an amateur, unless he is really concerned about rules, the rules don't really matter.
That's the trouble with the world now... Lowering the standards, becoming mediocre. Next generations forgetting what quality is. Pol Pot killed all the teachers, we should be kept uneducated and equal, right?!! Don't expect more and don't try to rise to a higher standard.!! Yes?
Why shouldn't amateurs be as informed? Why shouldn't the one who views the art have an enhanced experience also, from knowing what to look fo |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 13:50:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Norma:
That's the trouble with the world now... Lowering the standards, becoming mediocre. Next generations forgetting what quality is.
There will always be artists. There will always be those who are interested in learning about art. And that's fine. However, most people simply enjoy or do not enjoy what the artist does. Critics of Bob Dylan may hate what he does, and it isn't as though I can grab them by the throat, hold them down and make them understand why he is great. Conversely, I bet most of Dylan's fans don't notice the horizontal and vertical rhymes in his phrasing. Why? Because it isn't important to them to know what he is doing on a technical level. They just know that they like what they hear. And really, that's fine. I doubt that Dylan makes his music to impress an artistic elite. It doesn't affect the quality of their enjoyment to not know everything. And it will not make Dylan mediocre because they don't.
Do you actually believe that people like Steve Jones of the Sex Pistols knew the rules for making “quality” music in order to break them? And yet he was a great guitar player. Technically he probably couldn't play his way out of a wet paper bag. And yet what he did was so affective that he is given credit for expanding the form, at least in rock… And some of the people who enjoyed him were, among other things, a part of the art underground.
quote:
Snake:
What is my premise? Giving constructive criticism is not allowed!
Nope. Not unless you're asked. And that is exactly where you went wrong…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 14:37:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Norma:
That's the trouble with the world now... Lowering the standards, becoming mediocre. Next generations forgetting what quality is.
There will always be artists. There will always be those who are interested in learning about art. And that's fine. However, most people simply enjoy or do not enjoy what the artist does. Critics of Bob Dylan may hate what he does, and it isn't as though I can grab them by the throat, hold them down and make them understand why he is great. Conversely, I bet most of Dylan's fans don't notice the horizontal and vertical rhymes in his phrasing. Why? Because it isn't important to them to know what he is doing on a technical level. They just know that they like what they hear. And really, that's fine. I doubt that Dylan makes his music to impress an artistic elite. It doesn't affect the quality of their enjoyment to not know everything. And it will not make Dylan mediocre because they don't.
Do you actually believe that people like Steve Jones of the Sex Pistols knew the rules for making “quality” music in order to break them? And yet he was a great guitar player. Technically he probably couldn't play his way out of a wet paper bag. And yet what he did was so affective that he is given credit for expanding the form, at least in rock… And some of the people who enjoyed him were, among other things, a part of the art underground.
quote:
Snake:
What is my premise? Giving constructive criticism is not allowed!
Nope. Not unless you're asked. And that is exactly where you went wrong…
*applause*
'nuff said. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 15:12:35 [Permalink]
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When I posted the photo I certainly didn't expect to generate such a vigorous discussion, although it has been interesting. I wasn't soliciting a critique, but I usually don't mind when someone provides one. That's the chance one takes when placing the results of their efforts in view of the public, whether artistic endeavor or otherwise.
By suggesting that I might have drawn in closer to the little kid in the shot, Snake seemed to be saying, "It would have been a better picture if it was a different picture." And it may have been. It may have been an even better picture if I had stayed home and taken an ultra close-up macro shot of some bug's leg and Photoshopped it into a wildly colored abstract. But I didn't. It was what it was. Considering what everyone had to pay to come into this gallery and look around, I hope y'all got your money's worth. 
But getting to the point, remembering how we enjoyed Easter by sharing various bunny pictures, what I really had in mind in posting that photo was to see if anyone else had any fun or interesting July 4th photos to share. No? Well, at risk of stirring up another debate on the finer points of artistic expression, here's one looking south along the Illinois River, past the Murray Baker Bridge, with Peoria city lights in the background and a rocket exploding in the sky above the bridge...
Oooooooh... Ahhhhhhhh
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 15:21:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
Well, at risk of stirring up another debate on the finer points of artistic expression, here's one looking south along the Illinois River, past the Murray Baker Bridge, with Peoria city lights in the background and a rocket exploding in the sky above the bridge...
That photo would have been perfect if you cropped out Peoria and focused on a seashell in Florida. Other than that it's fine.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 12:47:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
There will always be artists. There will always be those who are interested in learning about art. And that's fine. However, most people simply enjoy or do not enjoy what the artist does. Critics of Bob Dylan may hate what he does, and it isn't as though I can grab them by the throat, hold them down and make them understand why he is great. Conversely, I bet most of Dylan's fans don't notice the horizontal and vertical rhymes in his phrasing. Why? Because it isn't important to them to know what he is doing on a technical level. They just know that they like what they hear. And really, that's fine. I doubt that Dylan makes his music to impress an artistic elite. It doesn't affect the quality of their enjoyment to not know everything. And it will not make Dylan mediocre because they don't.
Do you actually believe that people like Steve Jones of the Sex Pistols knew the rules for making “quality” music in order to break them? And yet he was a great guitar player. Technically he probably couldn't play his way out of a wet paper bag. And yet what he did was so affective that he is given credit for expanding the form, at least in rock… And some of the people who enjoyed him were, among other things, a part of the art underground.
David, I know you are a nice guy so that's why I hate to have to say this to you but, were you 'stoned' when you wrote that?
quote:
Nope. Not unless you're asked. And that is exactly where you went wrong…
That's the most ridiculous thing to say. If that's the case then why didn't he put a seal on the folder and/or when the 1st comments started appearing so no one could give their opinion. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 13:41:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake:
David, I know you are a nice guy so that's why I hate to have to say this to you but, were you 'stoned' when you wrote that?
Well, I like a good ad hominem as much as the next guy I guess. The problem is, I have not the slightest idea of why you said that. Perhaps if your going to get into name-calling, you might want to explain why you think I deserve it. Otherwise your comment is meaningless. I will answer your question though. No, I only wished I was stoned after reading your last post…
And since GeeMack doesn't really care if you criticize his picts, I don't care either. But I do think it was rude to assume that it was okay to do it. I think you should have asked if he wanted some constructive criticism first…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2006 : 13:52:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
When I posted the photo I certainly didn't expect to generate such a vigorous discussion, although it has been interesting. I wasn't soliciting a critique, but I usually don't mind when someone provides one. That's the chance one takes when placing the results of their efforts in view of the public, whether artistic endeavor or otherwise.
By suggesting that I might have drawn in closer to the little kid in the shot, Snake seemed to be saying, "It would have been a better picture if it was a different picture." And it may have been. It may have been an even better picture if I had stayed home and taken an ultra close-up macro shot of some bug's leg and Photoshopped it into a wildly colored abstract. But I didn't. It was what it was. Considering what everyone had to pay to come into this gallery and look around, I hope y'all got your money's worth.
But getting to the point, remembering how we enjoyed Easter by sharing various bunny pictures, what I really had in mind in posting that photo was to see if anyone else had any fun or interesting July 4th photos to share. No? Well, at risk of stirring up another debate on the finer points of artistic expression, here's one looking south along the Illinois River, past the Murray Baker Bridge, with Peoria city lights in the background and a rocket exploding in the sky above the bridge...
The idea of pointing out how better to SEE (and understand) anything, not just the picture in this folder, is to expand peoples knowledge so they can widen their experiences, which is usually appreciated. At least by people who don't have limited focus and narrow or closed minds.
No Gee, that's not what I was saying. Well, I've always said I'm not a teacher, I don't have the skills but I try to help when I see some potential (as you have). Since art is visual, it's difficult to only use words at a distance (the Internet) to show what one is talking about.
You are not wrong about staying home though. One photo teacher I studied with was asked by a student how to take a certain kind of picture through glass. I won't go into the long details but, the end of the story is, if you can't do it right don't do it (that was his philosophy anyway). You'd have to measure the light, find out the kind of glass, etc., etc. A lot time and effort for one good shot. My teacher went on to say he never takes vacation photos because he knows he doesn't have time to set up the scene the way it should be. He might not be at a location at the right time of day for the lighting, etc. and he doesn't want a bad photo.
If one just wants memories and needs a visual aid, fine. Film (now digital) in not expensive. But just know the limited audience they are going to speak to. As one learns to observe more, he knows to pass up shots that 'just don't look right'.
Now, if anyone would like some more "finer points of artistic expression" about the fireworks photo here... here:
1st of all, I see you do have potential. I saw almost that same shot in a newspaper recently BUT there was more reflection in the water AND more importantly there were two other smaller overlapping bursts of fireworks to the right of the photo (where you have negative space). That my friend is a 'rule' in art that does make for a more interesting balanced design. Hope that helps, I don't meant to say anything against any other work just improve.
I also don't understand why anyone (not Gee but others here) should be so agitated by a few little helpful words in a critique. Like Gee, I don't mind hearing what people have to say about my work and take everything under consideration. There are things one doesn't see in his own work that when pointed out could benefit in the future.
Well, that's all I can think of now but as soon as I have some more golden words of wisdom I'll let you all know.  |
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