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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 07/05/2006 : 21:04:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Creationist scientists currently think that mountains such as the Himalayas were probably built by catastrophic movement of the Earth's continental plates during and after the Flood. The rate of rise now measured is just the remnant of the processes which occurred much faster in the past.
Yes, they do have all the answers. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2006 : 02:28:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
"In those instances where the archaeological findings seem to be at variance with the Bible, the discrepancy lies with the archaeological evidence, i.e. improper interpretation, lack of evidence, etc.-not with the bible."
-Dr. Bryant C. Wood, archaeologist
Reminds me of an old swedish military saying: When you have a map that doesn't match the landscape, the map is always right. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2006 : 05:09:30 [Permalink]
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My Son, these maxims make a rule,
An' lump them aye thegither;
The Rigid Righteous is a fool,
The Rigid Wise anither:
The cleanest corn that ere was dight
May hae some pyles o' caff in;
So ne'er a fellow-creature slight
For random fits o' daffin.
Solomon.-Eccles. ch. vii. verse 16.
O ye wha are sae guid yoursel',
Sae pious and sae holy,
Ye've nought to do but mark and tell
Your neibours' fauts and folly!
Whase life is like a weel-gaun mill,
Supplied wi' store o' water;
The heaped happer's ebbing still,
An' still the clap plays clatter.
Hear me, ye venerable core,
As counsel for poor mortals
That frequent pass douce Wisdom's door
For glaikit Folly's portals:
I, for their thoughtless, careless sakes,
Would here propone defences-
Their donsie tricks, their black mistakes,
Their failings and mischances.
Ye see your state wi' theirs compared,
And shudder at the niffer;
But cast a moment's fair regard,
What maks the mighty differ;
Discount what scant occasion gave,
That purity ye pride in;
And (what's aft mair than a' the lave),
Your better art o' hidin.
Think, when your castigated pulse
Gies now and then a wallop!
What ragings must his veins convulse,
That still eternal gallop!
Wi' wind and tide fair i' your tail,
Right on ye scud your sea-way;
But in the teeth o' baith to sail,
It maks a unco lee-way.
See Social Life and Glee sit down,
All joyous and unthinking,
Till, quite transmugrified, they're grown
Debauchery and Drinking:
O would they stay to calculate
Th' eternal consequences;
Or your more dreaded hell to state,
Damnation of expenses!
Ye high, exalted, virtuous dames,
Tied up in godly laces,
Before ye gie poor Frailty names,
Suppose a change o' cases;
A dear-lov'd lad, convenience snug,
A treach'rous inclination-
But let me whisper i' your lug,
Ye're aiblins nae temptation.
Then gently scan your brother man,
Still gentler sister woman;
Tho' they may gang a kennin wrang,
To step aside is human:
One point must still be greatly dark, -
The moving Why they do it;
And just as lamely can ye mark,
How far perhaps they rue it.
Who made the heart, 'tis He alone
Decidedly can try us;
He knows each chord, its various tone,
Each spring, its various bias:
Then at the balance let's be mute,
We never can adjust it;
What's done we partly may compute,
But know not what's resisted.
-- Robrt Burns
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2006 : 10:41:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
This one's a hoot! They have all the answers.
The English version is here, the Portuguese version is this one, this is the Swedish version, and this is the Spanish version.
Enjoy!
As per request by Halfmooner, I've made a quick comparison between the Swedish translation and the English original.
I found the translation to be at least semi-professionally made. There are a few instances where I would have chosen another word, and in a few cases built the sentences differently.
There were some passages in the Swedish text where the sentence structure were typically English, and where a native Swedish author would have expressed himself differently, but it was done without it being a bad translation.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2006 : 13:59:02 [Permalink]
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I liked this:
If you are an atheist, a materialist, a pantheist, or a naturalist, try to answer the following 11 questions:
#7 - Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?
One is a sadistic, brutal dictator and the other is... um... a spokesman for a sadistic, brutal dictator? |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2006 : 13:59:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
This one's a hoot! They have all the answers.
The English version is here, the Portuguese version is this one, this is the Swedish version, and this is the Spanish version.
Enjoy!
As per request by Halfmooner, I've made a quick comparison between the Swedish translation and the English original.
I found the translation to be at least semi-professionally made. There are a few instances where I would have chosen another word, and in a few cases built the sentences differently.
There were some passages in the Swedish text where the sentence structure were typically English, and where a native Swedish author would have expressed himself differently, but it was done without it being a bad translation.
Thanks, Dr. Mab! Amazing how that site's scholarship can be so good in some areas, and so bone-headedly, Bible-thumpingly antiscientific in others.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2006 : 15:37:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Hey, it's not just archeology and geology, they really do think they have all the answers. Their treatment of the Big Bang is to be expected, but "Why does God allow innocent people to suffer?" doesn't actually answer the question other than to deny the existence of innocent people.
The fundies seem to be stuck playing the same record groove over and over, constantly confusing the Big Bang with evolution. The ToE says nothing about the creation of the universe, and does not in any manner stand or fall upon a theistic or a-theistic creation. (The Creationists also love to throw in abiogenesis, as though it were a subject that would have to be fully understood and proven in order for the ToE to work.) But, as this site puts it, the Big Bang is considered by them to be one of them there "long-age evolutionary theories" (what a baffling misuse of words!) designed to "compromise the Bible." So I wonder what the Creationists' motivation is in so constantly and deliberately conflating these separate questions.
My guess is that they do this not to create a stronger "scientific" argument (indeed, their illogical conflation of ToE, abiogenesis, and Big Bang weakens their arguments from any scientific standpoint), but to strengthen their own convictions that secular science is a vast, well-coordinated conspiracy that is attacking the Bible and Christians on all fronts. I'm starting to see this paranoid "persecution complex" as being a central key to understanding the motivations of the Creationists and the fundies in general.
[Edited to add:]
The irony of course, is that the fundies feel themselves most powerless and persecuted at the very time they are (I dearly hope) at the pinnacle of their power, having seized control of all three branches of the most powerful nation on earth. There is something dangerously Hitlerian in this grandly delusional outlook.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/06/2006 17:41:09 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2006 : 21:10:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
The irony of course, is that the fundies feel themselves most powerless and persecuted at the very time they are (I dearly hope) at the pinnacle of their power, having seized control of all three branches of the most powerful nation on earth. There is something dangerously Hitlerian in this grandly delusional outlook.
Geeeez, Half, it's in the Bible that if you are being persecuted for your belief in Christ, then you are blessed. Their persecution complex is therefore necessary, and is why the more vocal of 'em invented a "war on Christmas" and why half the anecdotes the YECs tell during "debates" about evolution begin with "I was talking with an atheist one day..." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 09:35:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
This one's a hoot! They have all the answers.
The English version is here, the Portuguese version is this one, this is the Swedish version, and this is the Spanish version.
Enjoy!
As per request by Halfmooner, I've made a quick comparison between the Swedish translation and the English original.
I found the translation to be at least semi-professionally made. There are a few instances where I would have chosen another word, and in a few cases built the sentences differently.
There were some passages in the Swedish text where the sentence structure were typically English, and where a native Swedish author would have expressed himself differently, but it was done without it being a bad translation.
Well, I don't have to compare to the english version to spot a few grammatical mistakes in the Portuguese version, but not too terrible, considering Portuguese is a bitch. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 12:30:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Hey, it's not just archeology and geology, they really do think they have all the answers. Their treatment of the Big Bang is to be expected, but "Why does God allow innocent people to suffer?" doesn't actually answer the question other than to deny the existence of innocent people.
Heck, even the seemingly innocent, like babies and the mentally handicapped, can expect no sympathy from a vengeful God:
"As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so."
A pre-emptive strike, so to speek (though I don't know how the mentally incompetent who don't know right from wrong would ever be 'able to do so'.) Still seem unfair? Well, tough:
"...whatever God does is, by definition, right."
And the site has the nerve to call atheism the "ultimate intellectual suicide"? 
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"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 12:51:39 [Permalink]
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What an utterly amazing waste of-- ink? Er, disk space. Or something. There are number of sites like they. They all make more or less the same rather unremarkable observation: some stuff that mentioned in the Bible appears in the archaeological record. From this, they argue, we can exprapolate that everything in the Bible is true.
This is a particularly annoying comment: quote:
over the years there have been many criticisms leveled against the Bible concerning its historical reliability. These criticisms are usually based on a lack of evidence from outside sources to confirm the Biblical record. Since the Bible is a religious book, many scholars take the position that it is biased and cannot be trusted unless we have corroborating evidence from extra-Biblical sources. In other words, the Bible is guilty until proven innocent, and a lack of outside evidence places the Biblical account in doubt.
This standard is far different from that applied to other ancient documents, even though many, if not most, have a religious element. They are considered to be accurate, unless there is evidence to show that they are not.
This is a rather obnoxious and misleading statement, but typical. It's of course completely false to say that "many, if not most" cuneiform texts have a religious element. Unless you count an administrative record of a sheep offering for cultic use as having a religious element. But most of what we have are administrative, economic, and legal records-- receipts, inventories of goods, contracts, and the like-- and letters. We also have many lexical documents (dictonaries, sign-lists) and royal inscriptions. Unless we allow for the broadest definition of "religious," it's hard to imagine that they take up much of the total known cuneiform corpus.
But is it true to say that in general, cuneiform documents are "are considered to be accurate, unless there is evidence to show that they are not"? Well, sort of. I mean, is there any reason to doubt that a record of animals being sent to the royal kitchens of the king of Ur for slaughter and consumption is anything else? No, of course not. Similarly, what reason is there to doubt a contract spelling out the particulars of a transaction of, say, the sale of a slave for a certain amount of silver?
But no one actually thinks that, for instance a piece of propoganda-- say a giant royal inscription detailing some victory over a rival-- is 100% true. Indeed, scholars often search for clues to discern just what might have really happened. Problem is, since no one in the modern world has a vested interest in having said inscription be true, no one cares if we call king so-and-so a liar.
In addition, cuneiformists are all too happy to ascribe problems in the reading of texts to an error on the part of a scribe. This is particularly so when dealing with much-copied myths and epics. Again, no one worries too much about this since no one cares that some such wording might be an error. Similarly, when mythical elements of one cuneiform composition are said to have been borrowed from some other composition, no one cares. This is not like the Bible, where the concept of borrowing is simply not allowed for.
The difference between the Bible and a cuneiform document, of course, is that while a cuneiform tablet is contemporary to the period about which it informs us, the Bible was written hundred of years later than this. The stories of David, for instance, were no written at the time of David. Or even close to the time of David. Moreover, like cuneiform royal inscriptions, the stories of David are certainly written with an agenda and so should be carefully considered. And finally, they were copied and re-copied and then codified later still-- almost certainly with different agendas in play-- so that even more skepticism must be used.
In short, the Bible is treated differently from other ancient writings because it's different than other ancient writings. To treat them the same would be intellecually dishonest. That Biblical literalists still want that is telling. |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 13:03:35 [Permalink]
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From the site:
Why do so many scientists endorse evolution?
Dr. Emery S. Dunfee, former professor of physics at the University of Maine at Farmington:
"One wonders why, with all the evidence, the (Godless) theory of evolution still persists. One major reason is that many people have a sort of vested interest in this theory. Jobs would be lost, loss of face would result, text books would need to be eliminated or revised."
I hate it when textbooks have to be revised. Oh the embarrassment!
What a crock. Textbooks get revised all the time. Overturning the prevailing paradigm is the "holy grail" of any scientist worth his/her salt. What a rush that must be. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 13:09:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally quoted by leoofno
"One wonders why, with all the evidence, the (Godless) theory of evolution still persists. One major reason is that many people have a sort of vested interest in this theory. Jobs would be lost, loss of face would result, text books would need to be eliminated or revised."
Oh, and everyone knows those things are considered - by the religious scientists - to be much more important than saving anyone's immortal soul. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 15:30:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by leoofno
From the site:
Why do so many scientists endorse evolution?
Dr. Emery S. Dunfee, former professor of physics at the University of Maine at Farmington:
"One wonders why, with all the evidence, the (Godless) theory of evolution still persists. One major reason is that many people have a sort of vested interest in this theory. Jobs would be lost, loss of face would result, text books would need to be eliminated or revised."
I hate it when textbooks have to be revised. Oh the embarrassment!
What a crock. Textbooks get revised all the time. Overturning the prevailing paradigm is the "holy grail" of any scientist worth his/her salt. What a rush that must be.
Excellent point! I recently wrote something of the sort in another thread. Scientists, almost without exception, love to overturn conventional wisdom -- and they do it every time they can get their hands on evidence. That's one way careers are made in science.
Sadly, the quoted writer probably believes his own words. What he is describing is actually the kind of doctrinal attachment to ancient authority that the fanatically religious practice daily. They simply cannot conceive that science works in a world of mutable "truths," where what is thought to be so today may be proven false tomorrow. So they project their inflexible way of thinking upon scientists. Indeed, if they were capable of understanding how scientists actually think, they would probably be scientists, or at least intelligent laymen.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/07/2006 15:32:19 |
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