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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 07/07/2006 : 16:00:55 [Permalink]
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Wonderful essay, Cuneiformist. I might add that there are other ancient texts besides the Bible that were written down long after the alleged events.
The Iliad and the Odyssey, attributed to Homer, come immediately to mind. For millennia, a great deal of scholarship have gone into studying these texts. For the most part, modern scholars neither consider them to be "guilty until proven innocent," nor "innocent until proven guilty." Instead, scholars tend to look for Homeric references in early writings, and to look for places and people mentioned in these works. They try to understand the impulses and motivations of the ancient Greeks and their neighbors. These wonderful works of Homer are mixed bags: Myth, religion, politics, sex, violence, gods that come to earth and interfere in the doings of men and women, men who defy gods. Few modern people are "Homeric literalists." Yet there is a great deal about Homer that is "real," mixed with the myth.
One real thing about Homer is that (I think) his tales defined and created the Greeks -- just as the Old Testament served to define and create the Jews. That's "real," as real as Troy or Jerusalem. And in both the cases, Homer and the Bible, they have their biggest impact when they are taken most poetically and least literally, simply as huge myth-embellished epics of their people.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/07/2006 16:06:47 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 18:18:10 [Permalink]
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| Ironically, Homer is one of those people to whom Biblical textual apologists often point when saying that people take the existence of many historical figures for granted, but doubt the existence of Jesus. The real irony is that students of Homer can't seem to agree on whether he actually existed, or if the works attributed to him were written by several different people. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 22:30:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Ironically, Homer is one of those people to whom Biblical textual apologists often point when saying that people take the existence of many historical figures for granted, but doubt the existence of Jesus. The real irony is that students of Homer can't seem to agree on whether he actually existed, or if the works attributed to him were written by several different people.
The disputes among scholars about Homer (to paraphrase the famous dispute about Shakespeare, was Homer actually another poet composing under the same name?) are right and proper. My point is that the same standards apply to the Bible, as to the Iliad and the Odyssey. Both are the grand epic myths of their respective peoples, and both also should be subject to examination and deconstruction.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2006 : 07:05:53 [Permalink]
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| That's a good point about Homer, 'Mooner. We might add to that the large number of tales no doubt written but no longer preserved about all the other groups living and fighting in the Levant. The Moabits, the Edomites, and others had their own patron deities-- just like the Israelites had El and, later, Yahweh. They doubtless had their own tales of origin, stories of great leaders and epic patriarchs, and of course, scathing anecdotes about the backwards Israelites. Unfortunately, these are lost to time. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2006 : 08:19:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
The disputes among scholars about Homer (to paraphrase the famous dispute about Shakespeare, was Homer actually another poet composing under the same name?) are right and proper. My point is that the same standards apply to the Bible, as to the Iliad and the Odyssey. Both are the grand epic myths of their respective peoples, and both also should be subject to examination and deconstruction.
Yes, I'm just pointing out the ironic bits. The following conversation (more or less) has actually taken place on the SFN before:Apologist: The textual evidence for the existence of Jesus is stronger than for any other historical figure.
Skeptic: Oh? Do tell.
A: There's more evidence that Jesus existed than there is that Homer existed, but you take Homer's existence for granted.
S: No, actually, there are serious academic disputes over whether some guy name "Homer" existed.
A: [Crickets chirping] Sure, it's a simple matter of ignorantly choosing the wrong historical figure to compare with Jesus, but it's quite delicious when it happens. Mmmmmmmm. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2006 : 13:17:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
The disputes among scholars about Homer (to paraphrase the famous dispute about Shakespeare, was Homer actually another poet composing under the same name?) are right and proper. My point is that the same standards apply to the Bible, as to the Iliad and the Odyssey. Both are the grand epic myths of their respective peoples, and both also should be subject to examination and deconstruction.
Yes, I'm just pointing out the ironic bits. The following conversation (more or less) has actually taken place on the SFN before:Apologist: The textual evidence for the existence of Jesus is stronger than for any other historical figure.
Skeptic: Oh? Do tell.
A: There's more evidence that Jesus existed than there is that Homer existed, but you take Homer's existence for granted.
S: No, actually, there are serious academic disputes over whether some guy name "Homer" existed.
A: [Crickets chirping] Sure, it's a simple matter of ignorantly choosing the wrong historical figure to compare with Jesus, but it's quite delicious when it happens. Mmmmmmmm.
If the apologists could all be so dumb as that! I'll bet the average Jesuit would never create and step into such a trap.
I actually suspect the both Homer and Jesus walked the earth, and that their lives had some relationship to the stories coming down the ages about them. But I have no evidence whatsoever that this is so. With Jesus, at least, seeing such evidence would be a vital step (along with the minor matter of his divinity), if one were deciding whether to worship him. On the other hand, if "Homer" turned out to be an amalgam of ancient storytellers, perhaps a name conjured to lend authority to collected stories, that would be no great disaster to the Greeks, who even to this day love the Homeric epics in their own right.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2006 : 13:22:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
That's a good point about Homer, 'Mooner. We might add to that the large number of tales no doubt written but no longer preserved about all the other groups living and fighting in the Levant. The Moabits, the Edomites, and others had their own patron deities-- just like the Israelites had El and, later, Yahweh. They doubtless had their own tales of origin, stories of great leaders and epic patriarchs, and of course, scathing anecdotes about the backwards Israelites. Unfortunately, these are lost to time.
The winners get to write the histories, and, even better, to write the myths. It's sad to imagine how many peoples' stories are lost in time, sometimes burned along with the people who created them. I'm always excited when some scattered remnant of such stories surfaces, and hope that more will.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2006 : 15:16:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
The winners get to write the histories, and, even better, to write the myths. It's sad to imagine how many peoples' stories are lost in time, sometimes burned along with the people who created them. I'm always excited when some scattered remnant of such stories surfaces, and hope that more will.
I'm not even sure this is about winners getting to write the history though. It's more like an accident of chance. The Bible survived because for whatever reason, the Jews who were taken into exile in Babylon maintained their identity, while other groups were happier to assimilate or be assimilated. (I'm not sure I have that right; this late period stuff is outside of my general areas of expertise-- like ancient Sumer. Or drinking beer.)
But you are right that we almost certainly are missing out on some wonderful tales-- as fascinating, I'm sure, as the Bible's David saga, or the Exodus. We can only hope that future discoveries will shed light on just a fraction of what was written down! |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2006 : 17:28:39 [Permalink]
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Of course Homer exists (you knew this was coming, I cannot resist)
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2006 : 18:18:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Of course Homer exists (you knew this was coming, I cannot resist)
Mmmmm... Helen!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2006 : 22:34:22 [Permalink]
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| Amazing what qualifies as proof to some people. |
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craiger
New Member
11 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2006 : 11:20:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
This one's a hoot! They have all the answers.
The English version is here, the Portuguese version is this one, this is the Swedish version, and this is the Spanish version.
Enjoy!
"There are responses and there are answers. Not every response to a question is an answer." Fundamentalists have trouble with this concept.
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