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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 07/23/2006 : 16:33:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
…attempt to straighten out the health care mess as long as big insurance and big pharmaceutical companies went along with it.
quote:
From Wikipedia:
In 1993, United States President Bill Clinton's administration proposed a significant health care reform package. Clinton had campaigned heavily on health care in the 1992 election, and quickly set up a task force, headed by First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton, to come up with a comprehensive plan to provide universal health care for all Americans, which was to be a cornerstone of the administration's first-term agenda.
The result, announced by President Clinton in an address to Congress on September 22, 1993, was a complex and complicated proposal running more than 1,000 pages, the core element of which was an enforced mandate for employers to provide health insurance coverage to all of their employees through competitive but closely-regulated health maintenance organizations (HMOs). The plan, referred to derisively as "Hillary Care" by some, was initially well-received by liberal political leaders and most Americans who said health care was the most important issue facing the country. At its introduction the plan seemed likely to pass through the Democratic-controlled Congress.
Conservatives, libertarians and the insurance industry, however, staged an effective and well-organized campaign opposing Clinton's "Health Security" plan and criticized it as being overly bureaucratic and restrictive of patient choice. The effort included extensive advertising criticizing the plan, including the famous Harry and Louise ad, which depicted a middle-class couple despairing over the plan's bureaucratic nature. (The advertisements may have been particularly effective because they characterized Clinton's plan as being against middle class values).
Meanwhile, Democrats, instead of uniting behind the President's original proposal, offered a number of competing plans of their own. Some criticized the plan from the left, preferring a Canadian-style single payer system.
On September 26, 1994, Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell announced that the plan was dead, at least for that session of Congress. The defeat weakened Clinton politically, and contributed to widespread public frustration with perceived Congressional gridlock. In the 1994 election, the Republican revolution gave the GOP control of both houses of Congress, ending prospects for a Clinton-sponsored health care overhaul. Comprehensive reform aimed at creating universal health care in the United States have not been seriously considered by Congress since.
Bolding mine.
But okay. Clinton was “a reasonable right-wing conservative.” I guess all the right-wing and even moderate conservatives who torpedoed the plan, along with big insurance, were of the unreasonable type.
quote:
Gorgo:
You're not always rude, but you often say strange things like, "I can't believe you asked me that" for no apparent reason.
You're right. Being asked if I believe everything people say was no reason for me to respond like that. Shoot, it was down right impolite of me…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 17:46:46 [Permalink]
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See? Was that so hard?
That wasn't the only thing I said. I said that people leave for a lot of reasons. You didn't respond to the point of the post at all. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 20:56:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Soooo... which one of you killed all the libertarians, and where'd ya bury their bodies?
You know, 'cause I feel like dancin'.
Dancing on a Libertarian's grave? Well, you certainly have that right, and of course, as Libertarians would have it and expect it, you've got the right because you exist.
Living free and unemcumbered by government is attractive, especially if material well-being isn't a daily challenge for the aspiring or dyed-in-the-wool Libertarian.
I think it's really neat that the American Experience has continued long enough for there to have evolved a segment of society that can worry about itself without bothering to consider how things might be going for others at home or abroad.
It's not unlike the freedom that has allowed all kinds of religions to proliferate and grow, and for small businesses that, say, started in the early 20th century, to have multiplied and grown into powerful conglomerates. It's amazing what can occur with a free society.
Just like it's amazing how what goes around comes around if that which has grown and consolidated and gained enormous power (religion, big business, big government) tries to overwhelm and control one or both of the other two; not to mention the people.
I'm a pretty selfish and self-absorbed person when it comes to the use of my time and what I want to do on a particular day. However, I don't spend much of it worrying about irresponsible people who are less ambitious and less educated than I, and how much they might be draining the U-S Treasury for their lack of appreciation of the work ethic and paucity of knowledge in their brain.
The neo-cons have the manipulation of welfare for themselves down to a fine art: usually the only kind of art they can appreciate.
I hope this liberal blather hasn't brought you out of your dancing mood, marfknox.
Your friend, "Ayn Rand."
"The great thing about Art is not what it gives us, but what we become through it." --Oscar Wilde (trouble maker)
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"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me
"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty
"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde
"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus
"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde |
| Edited by - Orwellingly Yurz on 07/23/2006 21:32:37 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 21:43:40 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: quote:
Adding (sigh) and saying nothing is only an expression of arrogance, and does not further the discussion. Don't tell me to cut that shit out, that's just a perfectly reasonable and colorful style of commenting to show him what he's doing. I didn't call him an arrogant asshole, I was just showing what I learned from him. We all have our faults, including you, so lay off and set a good example, rather than derailing the discussion by telling us your emotional state if you want me to learn from you.
Of course we all have our faults. Yer picking on Kil for the sighing was just a rude as his sighing in the first place. I then picked on you for picking on him as an attempt to point that out. Apparently you missed my point. *sigh*
Why do I suddenly feel like I'm in a hall of mirrors? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/23/2006 21:44:19 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 21:49:03 [Permalink]
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OY! wrote: quote:
I hope this liberal blather hasn't brought you out of your dancing mood, marfknox.
Huh? *shrugs, continues dancing*
But seriously, I don't have a huge problem with libertarians. In fact I end up agreeing on most things with the moderate ones(such as most of the editors at The Economist). I made the dancing on grave comment mostly as an attempt to start trouble. I was feeling devious. I was specifically wondering if any fanatic libertarians were lurking and would take the bait. I know, bad Marf. *smacks own hand* |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/23/2006 21:49:48 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 23:59:10 [Permalink]
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From NPR- All Thing Considered 4/26/94
quote:
SIEGEL: And I'm Robert Siegel. The Clinton administration has tried hard to win the support of American business for its domestic policy from the budget to health care. But despite those efforts, the results have been mixed. While corporate executives enthusiastically joined the president to get the North American Free Trade Agreement passed, the White House hasn't been able to generate that kind of business support for its other policies. NPR's Mara Liasson reports.
MARA LIASSON, Reporter: President Clinton has an unshakeable belief in his ability to build bridges between opposing factions and when he came into office, he set out to find common ground with American business - a group not known for supporting Democratic presidents or their policies. Right after his election, Mr. Clinton invited hundreds of corporate executives to an economic summit in Little Rock. He's held weekly lunches for CEO's at the White House and when Saudi Arabia decided to buy a new fleet of American airplanes, the president himself, acting as salesman in chief, made the announcement at the White House.
When the Business Council held its annual dinner in Washington, the president was there, making his pitch.
Pres. BILL CLINTON: We have tried to maintain close ties to the American business community and to work in partnership on as many issues as we possibly could.
LIASSON: Indeed, there's been so much outreach to business that some Democrats in Congress complain the White House is too accessible to the corporate world. Robert Rubin is the chairman of the President's National Economic Council and a former co-chairman of Goldman Sachs, the big Wall Street investment banking firm.
ROBERT RUBIN, Pres., National Economic Council: I had the CEO of one of the largest companies in America in here the other day. He had a very interesting comment to make and he's a conservative Republican. He said this administration has been far more open than the Bush administration, far more available and far more engaged in talking with the business community about the economic issues that the business community is concerned about.
LIASSON: Even more than being engaged and available, argues Labor Secretary Robert Reich, many administration policies have done exactly what the business community wanted.
ROBERT REICH, Secretary of Labor: We did it all. We did reduce the budget deficit. We are on the road to GATT. We got NAFTA. We essentially have collaborated and responded to the business community, I think, in a very responsible way. Now the testing time comes.
LIASSON: Now, Reich says, the administration will find out if the work it did on policies business favored, translates into support from business on issues such as health care.
Although some individual business leaders have been supportive, for instance, 39 companies just signed a letter in favor of the employer mandate, the main financing mechanism of the president's health care plan - they are the exception not the rule. At the headquarters of the National Association of Manufacturers in Washington, Senior Vice President Paul Hewerd [sp], says having CEO's to lunch at the White House gives the appearance of business support that's not really there.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 00:03:02 [Permalink]
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Here's what I said. In other words, I was questioning what a liberal was. There is nothing conservative about the Bush administration, from what I can see. There is nothing conservative about torpedoing a plan that Clinton worked with big business to create.
If you are calling the people who torpedoed Clinton's plan only on the basis of partisan nonsense "conservative," then Clinton is of course not a conservative according to that thinking.
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
What is a liberal? Clinton is a reasonable right-wing conservative. Bush and his supporters are way over any kind of reasonable line.
(edited to say that Clinton is a reasonable conservative only if he is criminally incompetent and had no idea what he was doing with his foreign policy. if he wasn't criminally incompetent, then he's way over the right wing line as well)
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 00:12:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yer picking on Kil for the sighing was just a rude as his sighing in the first place. I then picked on you for picking on him as an attempt to point that out. Apparently you missed my point. *sigh*
You agree that Kil's behavior is rude. I didn't pick on him, I learned from him.
Your picking on me for learning from him is more rude than his rudeness. Lay off because, as I've learned from you, it's realy really important that I've decided to be annoyed and tired because of your behavior. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/24/2006 00:25:51 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 00:23:13 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, how many different ways and how many different people telling you that you're acting like an asshole is it going to take before it sinks in? Just curious.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 00:28:10 [Permalink]
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| I can't believe you asked me that question. (sigh) LOL whatever. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 02:28:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo, how many different ways and how many different people telling you that you're acting like an asshole is it going to take before it sinks in? Just curious.
Three. It takes three licks to get to the tootsie roll center.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 04:01:02 [Permalink]
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Dude doesn't know. He always bites it first.
http://www.tootsie.com/howmany-sb.html
Maude Lebowski: What do you do for recreation?
The Dude: Oh, the usual. I bowl. Drive around. The occasional acid flashback. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 08:01:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Gorgo, how many different ways and how many different people telling you that you're acting like an asshole is it going to take before it sinks in? Just curious.
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that sighing at someone else's inferior status as a subhuman is rude or not? Are you saying that 'LOL' is a sign that America On Line has injected the user with supreme intelligence?
Please be specific with your complaints. Your asshole comment doesn't tell me what specific action you wish me to take or what specific action you wish me to stop.
How many different people have said that I act like an asshole? Does it matter? Is this important to you somehow? Have you shown me why your opinion should matter on this subject? As Valiant Dancer might ask, is this your area of expertise? Do you have a doctorate in assholes? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 08:27:33 [Permalink]
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The hall of mirrors gets deeper, and multifaceted.
Gorgo wrote: quote:
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that sighing at someone else's inferior status as a subhuman is rude or not?
Cheeses Creased, what, are you scarred for life? Excuse me while I go get a violinist to play some sad sad music for you.
Kil does the whole sighing thing all the time. LOL is a standard now, and I'm a satiric asshole. Who fucking cares? If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. (Yes, Dude and Humbert, the irony that it is I saying these things is not lost on me. See - I learn!) It would have been a hell of a lot more useful and interesting had you come back at Kil with a real zinger to his argument. Mimicking his sighs and "whatever" over and over and over again is just fucking annoying. Yer acting like a child. Why don't you repeat this whole paragraph I just wrote? You can type "fucking", and "Yer", and tell me I'm acting like a child, right? Won't that be funny as hell? And you'll look all smart as if you've made some grant point to everyone. Really, go ahead, do it. (and when you do it, write "Really, go ahead, do it." too, and then something sarcastic in parantheses in the end. Yeah! Yeah!<--type that too.)
I promise, I'm done now. Really! |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/24/2006 08:27:56 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 08:35:48 [Permalink]
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Again, you seem to read things that aren't on the page. I didn't say anything about heat or kitchens. In fact, I said whether or not I was offended is almost irrelevant. In fact, it is irrelevant. It is as irrelevant to the discussion as is whether or not he is frustrated or you are annoyed.
Sighing,etc. is just a way to avoid reasonable discussion. And on the heels of him scratching his head trying to figure out why people don't like it here, it's kind of funny.
Your problem with it is just that. Your problem. Your objections are noted, at least those that are intelligible. As I said, my suggestion to you, if you don't like my tactics, is to set a reasonable example. You are as likely to take that advice as I am to take yours. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/24/2006 08:52:10 |
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Topic Locked
