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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  08:37:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
And if you paid attention at all, I backed up my argument, which so far Kil has ignored.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  08:58:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
See also from EXTRA in 1994: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1221

quote:
Hillary vs. Insurers

In November, major media focused on the White House-promoted story of "Hillary Rodham Clinton vs. the Insurance Industry." "The First Lady came out swinging, visibly angry as she took on the health insurance industry," said ABC's John McWethy (11/1/93). "Hillary Clinton Accuses Insurers of Lying About Health Proposal," blared a front-page New York Times headline (11/2/93); the Washington Post's followed suit (11/2/93) with "First Lady Lambastes Health Insurers." CNN's Bob Cain (11/3/93) declared that the Clinton administration was "engaged in something close to an all-out war with the health insurance industry."

These stories referred to Rodham Clinton's attack on a $6 million advertising campaign by the Health Insurance Association of America challenging the Clinton plan. What the news outlets didn't mention is that the "Big Five" insurance companies--Aetna, Cigna, Prudential, Metropolitan Life and Traveler's--have withdrawn from HIAA and are generally supportive of the Clintons' health policies. These companies have invested aggressively in Health Maintenance Organizations and other managed care networks, which stand to expand dramatically under the Clinton "managed competition" plan. The "managed competition" theory, in fact, was cooked up by executives of the Big Five and other medical industry leaders in annual meetings held in Jackson Hole, Wyoming.

The New York Times' Adam Clymer equated HIAA with the "insurance industry" throughout his piece--a particularly egregious error, given that the Times had earlier (2/28/93) run a detailed report on the Jackson Hole Group. The Washington Post's Dana Priest hinted at reality, describing HIAA as a "trade group of mainly medium-sized firms," and later saying that the group "represents 270 medium-and small-sized insurers, many of whom could be put out of business by reform." Insiders will recognize this as a reference to the fact that big insurers stand to profit greatly from the Clinton plan; other readers will remain in the dark.


I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  09:37:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Gorgo:
See? Was that so hard?

I'm sincerely hoping that the above was supposed to be humorous.
quote:
Gorgo:
That wasn't the only thing I said. I said that people leave for a lot of reasons. You didn't respond to the point of the post at all.

Since I agree in general with the above, there was no reason for me to argue the point except to point out that
some people did leave specifically because they didn't feel comfortable with the tilt of this site which became much more pronounced after 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq. To say I didn't respond, or that I missed the point is baloney.

Go back an look Gorgo. Those posts are right next to each other. I quoted your post and replied to it.

So, at this point you have me baffled. Are you just arguing for arguments sake?

quote:
Gorgo:
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that sighing at someone else's inferior status as a subhuman is rude or not?

As I said, often I consider you a voice here at SFN. (I can't actually say that about your contributions to this part of current conversation because they have become rather bizarre.) Sighing does not mean I think you are a subhuman or have an inferior status. It means I am frustrated. That's all. Nothing more.

If it's other people's feelings you seek to protect, since you said that it really doesn't matter if I offended you, I suggest you worry about yourself.

quote:
And if you paid attention at all, I backed up my argument, which so far Kil has ignored.

Again, you have attacked me. Sorry, I didn't know there was a time limit for my
response… Been kinda busy dealing with other shit in this thread.

I have an idea. Why don't I step down as an administrator and you can have my job. That way, I will have much more time responding to your posts in a timely manner and you can take care of those who post in a way that is offensive to you personally. Hell, you could even have me banned!

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  10:03:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Fine. Apology accepted. See how easy it is just to say, "hmm, I didn't mean to offend. Sorry."

Sighing is a way to be arrogant. That's all. It's irrelevant to the discussion that you're frustrated. That's your decision, not mine.

Please accept my apology now if I seemed to attack you in any way. That was not my intent. Again, I didn't think I called you any names. You are certainly under no time limit, but for good or bad reasons, it is still a true statement to say that you have still ignored my posts. I have ignored a lot of things. That is not an attack on me to say that. I didn't say, "he's acting like an asshole by ignoring my post."

However, I can see how it seems that this can be seen as pressuring you to adhere to my timetable, so I'll just apologize again.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 07/24/2006 10:08:08
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  11:46:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
Clinton did indeed work both the liberal side, the conservative democrat side, as well as business in trying to hammer out a plan that would fly. Single payer, the most liberal plan, didn't have enough support either in congress or by the general public to fly. As usual, Clinton sought a compromise in order to get the job done. Here is a history of the plan by Paul Star, one of the people who worked on it.

What Happened to Health Care Reform?

It's not a pretty story. But in the end, I just don't see how one could conclude, based on this attempt for real health care reform, that Clinton approached the plan as a right wing conservative…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  11:49:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
U.S. News & World Report; 5/24/1993; Bowermaster, David


quote:
Not all the health industry money is flowing to political candidates and traditional lobbyists. Aetna Life & Casualty, Golden Rule and the Mayo Clinic are among the corporate supporters of the nonprofit Jackson Hole Group, which is credited with the managed competition approach endorsed by Clinton. The Jackson Hole Group has a healthy budget of $600,000, and Paul Ellwood, the group's founder, says he solicited as much as $100,000 apiece from big insurance companies.

This picture of money and politics is incomplete without a look at donations by individuals, who can boost spending well



From the Progressive, 5/1/1993:

quote:
For most of its years, the Jackson Hole Group was bankrolled by InterStudy and other tax-exempt entities - such as the Pew Charitable Trusts and the Kaiser Family Foundation. But to enable Jackson Hole to lobby openly for its brand of health reform and to open a Washington outpost, corporate sponsorship was substituted for tax-exempt sponsorship in July 1992. Although the entire list of donors to the $600,000-a-year enterprise isn't available, the known contributors could hardly be called disinterested.

Voluntary Hospitals of America, a trade group of some 1,000 nonprofit hospitals, and General Electric, which makes pricey diagnostic equipment, are among them. So is the Mayo Clinic of Rochester, Minnesota, which also has facilities in Florida, Arizona, Iowa, and Wisconsin. The Golden Rule Insurance Company (which markets PPO policies and, according to The Washington Post, aspires to a larger share of the managed-care market) is on the list, as are insurers such as Metropolitan Life, Aetna, Prudential, and CIGNA, which already own and operate HMO chains.

None of this, of course, explains why candidate Clinton endorsed managed competition and is still hooked on it. However, several considerations may help. One is that Enthoven, like the President, was a Rhodes scholar, making them members of the same mutual-admiration society. Another is the repeated endorsements of the concept - which began well before the November election and have featured Enthoven - in the mighty New York Times. Michael Weinstein, a Stanford alumnus and Enthoven disciple who styles himself an "economics journalist," has been a Jackson Hole participant and is also on the Times editorial board.



I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  11:57:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
quote:

It's not a pretty story. But in the end, I just don't see how one could conclude, based on this attempt for real health care reform, that Clinton approached the plan as a right wing conservative…



That's fine. I am not arguing with you. If you'll recall, I asked you what your definition of a liberal is. What I said was, that on these matters, he is what I figure a reasonable conservative would be. Someone who is glad to come up with a plan that makes big business happy. That is exactly how he approached it. As to foreign policy, he isn't much different than any other president, including Bush. The only difference is Bush is happy to tell you that he doesn't care about international law. Clinton was either incompetent or a liar in that regard, as he at least attempted to convince people that he cared.

Anyway, from what I understand, most of the U.S. still wants a single-payer plan, so you make the call.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  12:44:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Gorgo:
What I said was, that on these matters, he is what I figure a reasonable conservative would be. Someone who is glad to come up with a plan that makes big business happy. That is exactly how he approached it.
Actually, being liberal always meant being a progressive to me. I don't see how it is the liberal thing to do to oppose big business as though they are always and automatically the enemy of the people. I do however think they need to be watched and there do need to be laws in place, and enforced, to keep them within certain ethical boundaries.

Anyhow, back in the early nineties HMO's seemed like a pretty good idea to many of us, even though my first choice would have been a single payer system. But getting as many people as possible affordable health care was the overriding concern. And at that time, not too many were interested in what they viewed derogatively as “socialized medicine.” So I completely understand the Clinton compromise. And really, I think that single payer would still be a tough sell, once the rhetoric starts flying...

Abuses in HMO's has caused them to loose much of their earlier luster. So perhaps, with the right leadership, a single payer system would be taken more seriously now. I dunno…




Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  14:26:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message


Sometimes I sigh because I'm tired. Posts explaining things, emotions, ideas, whatnot can be time consuming. I sigh occasionally because I'm asked to explain something I'd hoped was already obvious. It doesn't imply any reason why it wasn't obvious though I suppose one can make assumptions.

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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  14:35:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Thanks for a reasonable reply, beskeptigal.

Sometimes sighing is not an arrogant thing. Sometimes it is.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  14:38:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Thanks for the last link, Kil. I understand what's being said here, and a certain amount of it is true. But these are not the actions of someone anywhere left of a reasonable conservative in my view. If you want to start a national health care plan, it might make sense to go to the experts. But to me, the experts are the people who are already doing it. To me, you go to the people that want it, and not let it die because some Republicans don't want it. Maybe one of those points of contention that can never be resolved.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  20:39:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Gorgo wrote:
quote:
Sighing is a way to be arrogant. That's all.
then
quote:
Sometimes sighing is not an arrogant thing. Sometimes it is.
So you changed you mind? Now are you going to apologize to Kil for making him apologize for something he didn't even really do? Because, you know, I don't think there's been enough apologizing on this thread.

I'm sorry for being so sarcastic. ;-)

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  20:40:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Maybe I just started this thread because Half and OY! keep posting new topics which are almost always from a liberal point of view. (That's not a criticism BTW, just a comment.)

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 07/24/2006 20:40:50
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2006 :  03:49:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
quote:
So you changed you mind? Now are you going to apologize to Kil for making him apologize for something he didn't even really do? Because, you know, I don't think there's been enough apologizing on this thread.

I'm sorry for being so sarcastic. ;-)



I think if you'll notice, I said that sometimes it is arrogant, and you agreed it was rude. I think if you'll also notice, I did apologize and he did not.

sar·casm (särkzm)
n.
A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.


Please also notice, how much you've wounded me.


I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 07/25/2006 05:35:10
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2006 :  07:17:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

I think if you'll also notice, I did apologize and he did not.
So when you said, "Apology accepted" to Kil, was that sarcasm?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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