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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2006 : 14:49:01 [Permalink]
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Luke T said:
quote:
Unlike beskeptigal, I don't assign motives and assume the email from the Democratic Party that you received is some sort of Marxist plot, which would be the complement of her rants.
Bullshit. That was exactly your implication with your coy little suggestion that I ponder "why" the DNC would be sending me emails with what you claim to be "lies".
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 14:58:47 [Permalink]
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Also, when I said "they paid", I was perhaps excercising some rhetorical hyperbole.
But you cannot deny that Cyrus Nowrasteh and David Cunningham are paid political operatives.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 15:48:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Despite the effect on my blood pressure, I sat through this propaganda.
The movie was worse than I thought, and not because they were more misleading about Clinton, I already knew they were going to do that. The most disturbing thing in the movie was scene after scene where the script falsely claimed this or that Constitutional law or human right prevented us from taking care of the terrorists. This was not just right wing propaganda it was fascist propaganda.
Then the 9/11 Report must be fascist propaganda.
In last night's broadcast in the part I saw, they covered Moussaoui's part in the plan. They spent some time on the attempt to get a FISA warrant to look at Mousaoui's laptop. The warrant was denied. (ETA: Correction, the decision to even apply for a warrant was denied.)
Actually, it wasn't denied. The FBI never asked for it because they didn't think they had enough probable cause. It is unknown if FISA would have gone through with the request. Read the report.
Read my post. "the decision to even apply for a warrant was denied." |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 15:50:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
If you want my subjective opinion about 9/11, here it is.
I was in the military for 20 years. 1980 to 2000. After the collapse of the USSR, there was a lot of talk about the "peace dividend" that would result. And sure enough, I saw firsthand how the military and intelligence services were stripped down to bare bones under the Clinton Administration and a Republican led Congress, with the full support of their Democratic counterparts.
But more than just my own firsthand recollections, I have also in the past posted links on JREF of the poor readiness condition of the military in 1997.
I'm confused. How does military preparedness fit in with stopping terrorists? I can see how cutting budgets for the CIA and other intel organizations would, but would 9/11 have been stopped if we had 10 divisions instead of 8?
I was just drawing a picture of how the entire defense posture of the US was degraded during the 90s.
Where do you think the missiles that Clinton had fired at OBL came from?
Not the CIA.
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 15:56:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Luke T said:
quote:
Unlike beskeptigal, I don't assign motives and assume the email from the Democratic Party that you received is some sort of Marxist plot, which would be the complement of her rants.
Bullshit. That was exactly your implication with your coy little suggestion that I ponder "why" the DNC would be sending me emails with what you claim to be "lies".
Well, it is nice to know that foul language is allowed here. I wasn't sure.
No. I was not implying any such thing. It is what it is. A lie mailed out on the internet by the DNC.
I don't throw around the word "marxist" or "communist" lightly, unlike the way "nazi" and "fascist" are so casually tossed out here.
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 15:58:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Also, when I said "they paid", I was perhaps excercising some rhetorical hyperbole.
But you cannot deny that Cyrus Nowrasteh and David Cunningham are paid political operatives.
The way the Director of the DNC is a paid political operative, or the way Michael Moore is a paid political operative?
Big difference.
Saying these guys were paid by the Bush Administration to make this movie is like saying John Kerry paid Michael Moore to make Farenheit 9/11. Way, way out of line.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 16:23:38 [Permalink]
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 17:42:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Despite the effect on my blood pressure, I sat through this propaganda.
The movie was worse than I thought, and not because they were more misleading about Clinton, I already knew they were going to do that. The most disturbing thing in the movie was scene after scene where the script falsely claimed this or that Constitutional law or human right prevented us from taking care of the terrorists. This was not just right wing propaganda it was fascist propaganda.
Then the 9/11 Report must be fascist propaganda.
In last night's broadcast in the part I saw, they covered Moussaoui's part in the plan. They spent some time on the attempt to get a FISA warrant to look at Mousaoui's laptop. The warrant was denied. (ETA: Correction, the decision to even apply for a warrant was denied.)
Actually, it wasn't denied. The FBI never asked for it because they didn't think they had enough probable cause. It is unknown if FISA would have gone through with the request. Read the report.
Read my post. "the decision to even apply for a warrant was denied."
I see. I missed the edit. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 17:45:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
I was just drawing a picture of how the entire defense posture of the US was degraded during the 90s.
Where do you think the missiles that Clinton had fired at OBL came from?
Not the CIA.
Were we running low on missles or something? I still don't see the connection between having a huge Cold War era military and stopping terrorists. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 23:59:19 [Permalink]
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Luke T said:
quote:
Saying these guys were paid by the Bush Administration
It is obviously part of the recent coordinated effort and PR campaign to try and stir up the 9/12 outrage again.
When I said "they", I thought it was fairly obvious that the "they" in question was the republican party in general.
quote:
You might want to take a look at why they are sending you blatantly wrong information.
Then:
quote:
No. I was not implying any such thing. It is what it is. A lie mailed out on the internet by the DNC.
Then why bother asking me to question the motives of the people who sent me the email under discussion? Backpedal all you want, but your implication was (and is) clear.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 04:42:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Luke T: "From 1998: http://www.brookings.edu/dybdocroot/...n/19980327.HTM
Quote:
Arguing that strains on the military are becoming excessive, some policymakers have recently cried for relief.
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The Air Force is losing pilots at an unsustainably rapid rate, and as a result expects to be about 700 individuals short of desired levels next year. Reenlistment rates for first-term troops are at their lowest in fifteen years. According to at least two major surveys, the fraction of military personnel envisioning a long-term career in the armed forces has declined some 10 percent this decade. As a House National Security Committee report described last year, some types of equipment are in less than ideal condition. For example, many aircraft mission-capable rates are now at an eight-year low. And as a Senate Budget Committee majority report recently pointed out, a number of units suffer serious shortfalls in personnel that have handicapped them in training exercises.
Kerry took part in the creation of these conditions.
Get real, Luke. If you are referring to the Rove talking point that Kerry voted for then against whatever bill it was, that isn't realistic. Those appropriations bills have thousands of entries each. You can pick out a single appropriation and claim this guy voted for or against xyz because the public is so ignorant of how those bills are written. Kerry isn't responsible for low reenlistment rates and I doubt the choice of what the Pentagon is going to spend its trillions in tax dollars on is so tightly controlled by Congress as your statement implies.
Sourcewatch on the Brookings Institutequote:
Initially centrist, the Institution took its first step rightwards during the depression, in response to the New Deal. In the 1960s, it was linked to the conservative wing of the Democratic party, backing Keynsian economics. From the mid-70s it cemented a close relationship with the Republican party. Since the 1990s it has taken steps further towards the right in parallel with the increasing influence of right-wing think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation.
Interesting to see Teresa Heinz on the Board of Trustees, however.
I'll try to look closer at your other points later. It would help if you would state what point you are trying to make. I don't see any issues in a lot of the quotes you have posted so far, especially the quotes from the Commission report.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 09/13/2006 04:44:20 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 09:58:41 [Permalink]
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Media Matters has listed specific and detailed examples, with sources cited, of the how the miniseries falsely heaps blame on Clinton and attempts to exonerate Bush and portray him as an effective leader:
quote:
Reviews of the first part of ABC's "docudrama" The Path to 9/11, conducted by Media Matters for America and others, revealed that the film contained invented and factually inaccurate scenes that cast the Clinton administration as unwilling to aggressively combat terrorism. The second half of the miniseries, which aired on September 11, also contained scenes that were factually inaccurate -- this time showing President Bush taking aggressive action there is no indication he ever took.
Link to Bush favoring inaccuracies: http://mediamatters.org/items/200609130003
Link to debunk of fake scene blaming Clinton:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200609110001
More innaccuracies about Clinton Admin debunked:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200609060007
Truth about the Wall between govt agencies:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200609010012
Everything on Media Matters is meticulously cited with supporting evidence. There's a LOT of material about various aspects of this miniseries and how the Conservative Mainstream Media has misrepresented it to the public. It's well worth a look-see if you're under the misimpression that the miniseries isn't in large part propaganda. (Luke)
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-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 09/13/2006 10:01:17 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 03:39:07 [Permalink]
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Whilst on my way to church, I happened to come across this, and I thought I'd share it with you. quote:
Terrorist Attacks Bill Clinton Stopped
Just for the record, under Richard Clarke's leadership as Czar of Counterterrorism:.
· CLINTON developed the nation's first anti-terrorism policy,
and appointed first national coordinator of anti-terrorist efforts.
· Bill Clinton stopped cold the Al Qaeda millennium hijacking and bombing plots.
· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to kill the Pope.
· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up 12 U.S. jetliners simultaneously.
· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up UN Headquarters.
· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up FBI Headquarters.
The list, compiled by Clarence Swinney, a political historian, goes on for quite a way and contains a fair amount of stuff that I didn't know and some that I did.
So much for the "Clinton wasn't paying attention" dreck.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 15:55:11 [Permalink]
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Everyone knows that Clinton was a powerfull anti-terrorism president.
The GOP and the insane christians who control it are the incompetent ones on terrorism, and they think they can redefine their failure as Clinton's failure, and win a couple more elections in doing so.
And the stuff about Clinton being "weak" on defense cracks me up too. Bush 1 cut military spending, Clinton increased it and focused on high tech military advancements. All funding for the "future warrior" stuff comes from Clinton's admin. Same for the emphasis on precision munitions, and a bunch of other stuff.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2006 : 14:25:19 [Permalink]
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Bill Clinton did not one thing that filthy posted. People in the governemnt did, Clinton did not. He had little if anything to do with it.
However, it was Bill Clinton that ran away from Somalia showing bin-Laden our tail between our legs and proving to bin-Laden that the Americans in power, and too many Americans in general, lacked the will to do anything.
It was Clinton that responded with a few lame missles after haveing embasies blown up in two countries.
Here is a view at Clinton's budget.
Bush sucks. Clinton sucks. You can say it Dude, I know you can......
As far as weapony. Iraq and Isreal/Lebanon should change the way we look at high-tech shock and awe (Aw shucks, it's high tech.) Boots on the ground.......
Peace
Joe |
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