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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 09/18/2006 : 16:48:15 [Permalink]
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Very scary stuff. It looks to me as though Fischer is training the future Brownshirt thug enforcers of the Theonazis -- the one area where the fundies have lagged behind historical Fascists. By any reasonable standard, what she's doing is mass brainwashing and child-abuse. And it's clearly intended to produce stormtroopers for theocratic Fascism.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 01:53:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
[i]Here's a news clip showing the children worshipping a photo of President Bush and performing passion plays while wearing camouflage war paint.
One young girl says "It's like we're training to be warriors, but in a more fun way." The camp's director says her goal is to see these children lay down their lives for god.
Does the term suicide bomber ring a bell? Trade bombing children to children bombing and you have a match. |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 05:15:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
OI, I would oppose almost all outside campaign money for local issues. (I'll leave the door open for some exception I cannot think of at the moment.) Most often it is big money trying to influence something they gain financially from, opposing something the local people stand to lose be it an environmental issue or an economic one.
But the issue with the Global Mission is its roots in Evangelizing, which is essentially a very aggressive form of seeking to convert people to their cause. As for the judges, I started a thread on this in the past, 100s of Christian 'think tanks' have sprung up. There have been a number of well funded, well organized religious organizations beginning in the 80s funneling money into actions which have the goal of legislating their personal religious beliefs on the rest of us. These folks are making a concerted effort to use abstinence only approaches to HIV prevention despite overwhelming evidence such programs are a waste of money and even harm some efforts to decrease HIV by preventing condom distribution. These groups have tried to rewrite history claiming our laws are based on the Ten Commandments which they are not. Our laws are based on English Common Law. These groups have tried to force schools to teach the Bible's version of creation.
And then there was that Armageddon-religious extremists&nuclear weapons thread you have seen.
It isn't just a matter of each side wants what it wants. It's an assault on the separation of church and state. It's persuasion by indoctrination, not just some simple preaching on the street corner.
Again, why did you not put these links in your original post, and call them idiots? No problem there. Evangelizing is Evangelizing. Some groups are fanatical / aggressive, others are not, but they are all evangelical. You painted with too wide a brush.
As far as teaching it in school, it needs to be taught in the context of philosiphy and critical thinking. It is all philosphy, and exposure to all forms of philosiphy is needed to develop critical thinking skills.
As far as your outside money issue, I tend to agree. However, you confused me with your ending:
quote:
Here in WA we have a right wing Evangelical group putting on hundreds of negative TV ads against a State Supreme Court Judge to promote 'their' candidate. It's quite alarming IMO.
Peace
Joe
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 07:25:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
That is a human conditon / nature, not the fault of the religion, politicl philosiphy, or nationalistic intent. The practice has to be seperated from the practitioners.
Peace
Joe
I fear, my friend, I must disagree. Without it's practitioner(s), there can be no practice. Conversly, the practitioner(s) can always quit.
Examples: the dead religions of the Greeks and Romans, et al. They lost their faithful and with them their existance outside of history books and computer games.
Would that political pratices die so easily... We are a social animal that will follow, many (most?) of us blindly, the loudest leader. Unfortunatly, the loudest is often the most evil. Example: Adolf Hitler.
The Germans, and indeed, not a few in the US and elsewhere, loved Hitler! Many continued to love the sick prick even after he showed his true colors; and a certain number of them and their offspring love his memory. Thus, Nazism is alive and well because it has no lack of adherents.
You will, of course, take note of the admirable restraint I've shown by not mentioning Bush in this mini-rant.
Aw shit! I mentioned the fucker! 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 19:40:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
That is a human conditon / nature, not the fault of the religion, politicl philosiphy, or nationalistic intent. The practice has to be seperated from the practitioners.
Peace
Joe
I fear, my friend, I must disagree. Without it's practitioner(s), there can be no practice. Conversly, the practitioner(s) can always quit.
Examples: the dead religions of the Greeks and Romans, et al. They lost their faithful and with them their existance outside of history books and computer games.
Would that political pratices die so easily... We are a social animal that will follow, many (most?) of us blindly, the loudest leader. Unfortunatly, the loudest is often the most evil. Example: Adolf Hitler.
The Germans, and indeed, not a few in the US and elsewhere, loved Hitler! Many continued to love the sick prick even after he showed his true colors; and a certain number of them and their offspring love his memory. Thus, Nazism is alive and well because it has no lack of adherents.
You will, of course, take note of the admirable restraint I've shown by not mentioning Bush in this mini-rant.
Aw shit! I mentioned the fucker!
That was a bad statement for the arguement. It was also akin to justification, and I am ashamed that when I tried to simplify my answer, I came up with that.....
Some things need to be anhiated because of their inherent evil (radical Islamists, Chritsian sects such as Christian Identity, Nazism). With some, you have to say... what a bunch of idiots (Heavens Gate comes to mind). With some they should be embraced as true doers of good for goods sake.
I do mourn the dead religions, especially Nordic (from a historical, colorful, literary view). Monotheism is kind of boring comparatively.....
Oh so I'll roast in hell..... beats gettting tied to a stone for a bird to eat me everyday...........God said "let their be light.........OR Odin, Villi, and Vi killed Ymir and made the world.... I'll take the Edda over the NT anyday... but I digress.....
Peace
Joe |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2006 : 04:10:06 [Permalink]
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Those other threads weren't written all that long ago, OI. My posts can be waay too long as it is. I have been posting about the active attempt by a fairly sizable loosely organized religious group to inject themselves into everyone's lives by controlling every aspect of the government they can. I am not pleased with their anti-science beliefs and their conviction that whatever is a Biblical sin should also be a legal infraction. If you are confused about the judge comment, you might want to read more on that 100s of think tanks thread. I was quite dismayed this group is pushing their "activist judges" into the courts in my state. These are not merely conservative judges, they are the Judge Moores who want the Ten Commandments in the courtroom for all to see. It is one dogmatic belief that judge who is supposed to be impartial is going to judge people by.
Sex between adults is not illegal. Not everyone's religion includes the belief it is a sin to be gay. Abstinence only programs are useless in promoting abstinence and in preventing STDs including HIV according to overwhelming research. These are not the values I want to see become legislated morality. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2006 : 04:19:20 [Permalink]
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I have a follow up on the VIDEO: Kids At Jesus Camp Worship To Bush Picture... from youtube. Apparently we should be more skeptical.
The pastor involved in the camp called the Ed Shultz Show to explain. They weren't worshiping Bush, they were laying hands on the photo and praying for him. She said it looked like they were bowing to the photo only because of the number of people reaching over each other to touch the pic.
She said the camouflage uniforms were for a short event and it was about being Christian soldiers, not real soldiers. And whatever is in there about Israel was the same, something about Biblical references not current event references. I can't recall all she said about that and haven't seen the video.
Shultz said after she hung up he wished he'd asked her if she would have prayed the same for Kerry if Kerry were president. Shultz was a bit skeptical when the pastor denied there was any political ideology being pushed. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2006 : 05:30:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I have a follow up on the VIDEO: Kids At Jesus Camp Worship To Bush Picture... from youtube. Apparently we should be more skeptical.
The pastor involved in the camp called the Ed Shultz Show to explain. They weren't worshiping Bush, they were laying hands on the photo and praying for him. She said it looked like they were bowing to the photo only because of the number of people reaching over each other to touch the pic.
She said the camouflage uniforms were for a short event and it was about being Christian soldiers, not real soldiers. And whatever is in there about Israel was the same, something about Biblical references not current event references. I can't recall all she said about that and haven't seen the video.
Shultz said after she hung up he wished he'd asked her if she would have prayed the same for Kerry if Kerry were president. Shultz was a bit skeptical when the pastor denied there was any political ideology being pushed.
That hit a level of about 86 out of 100 on my bullshit detector. I have no doubt that the kids were praying for Bush, or perhaps at him, but not to him. Sort'a figgered that from the first. But the rest of it....?
The laying of hands on the picture is a bit disturbing. That is an ancient practice; an attempt to gain something from the object or person; perhaps strength, perhaps inspiration, perhaps wisdom or courage. Or salvation. So as such, it implies worship.
I am reminded of a statue of a saint that I saw in a European cathedrel, forget which country. This statue had a foot slightly extended, and all of it's features were worn away smooth from centuries of being stroked by the faithful.
Neophyte 'Christian' soldiers don't need uniforms or to skulk about the puckerbrush. They don't need little-league, war games even without simulated firearms. They need -- well, hell, I don't know what they need; I'm not a Christian.
And if I have it straight, they are speaking in tongues and weeping for salvation? Young kids are doing this? If that ain't a sure sign of heavy-duty indoctrination, please tell me what is....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2006 : 06:40:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Those other threads weren't written all that long ago, OI. My posts can be waay too long as it is. I have been posting about the active attempt by a fairly sizable loosely organized religious group to inject themselves into everyone's lives by controlling every aspect of the government they can. I am not pleased with their anti-science beliefs and their conviction that whatever is a Biblical sin should also be a legal infraction. If you are confused about the judge comment, you might want to read more on that 100s of think tanks thread. I was quite dismayed this group is pushing their "activist judges" into the courts in my state. These are not merely conservative judges, they are the Judge Moores who want the Ten Commandments in the courtroom for all to see. It is one dogmatic belief that judge who is supposed to be impartial is going to judge people by.
Sex between adults is not illegal. Not everyone's religion includes the belief it is a sin to be gay. Abstinence only programs are useless in promoting abstinence and in preventing STDs including HIV according to overwhelming research. These are not the values I want to see become legislated morality.
Again, that is either a difirent arguement then the one originating this thread, or the one that originated the thread showed contempt for the wrong folks.
What is the difirence between Christians trying to legislate their beliefs, and moral relativists trying to legislate theirs?
Your contempt by brushing all Christians with the same brush only serves to strengthen them theough, and in reaction to, your bias.
Peace
Joe |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2006 : 07:41:08 [Permalink]
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If I may be permitted a bit of quote mining....
quote:
What is the difirence between Christians trying to legislate their beliefs, and moral relativists trying to legislate theirs?
There is none, that is, up the point where one tries to force their version of 'morality' upon others. And at that point, it goes beyond the intent of the Constitution.
Some Christian cultists, whom we have all seen flapping their lips on the toob, are trying to do just that.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2006 : 08:26:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
What is the difirence between Christians trying to legislate their beliefs, and moral relativists trying to legislate theirs?
Is there evidence that moral relativists have been trying to legislate morality? Being relativists, what morality could they possibly legislate?quote:
Your contempt by brushing all Christians with the same brush only serves to strengthen them theough, and in reaction to, your bias.
She didn't do so:I have been posting about the active attempt by a fairly sizable loosely organized religious group to inject themselves into everyone's lives by controlling every aspect of the government they can. She's talking about a subset of Christians, not all of them. That's been clear from my chair. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2006 : 09:42:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
If I may be permitted a bit of quote mining....
quote:
What is the difirence between Christians trying to legislate their beliefs, and moral relativists trying to legislate theirs?
There is none, that is, up the point where one tries to force their version of 'morality' upon others. And at that point, it goes beyond the intent of the Constitution.
Some Christian cultists, whom we have all seen flapping their lips on the toob, are trying to do just that.
I agree. The constitution is a sacred document to me. It was beautifuul, even in it's ugliness. The beauty is that it gave clear-cut concise rules for changing it. It can only be changed if a large majority of the people want it to, not if a simple majority, or even a minority desire it. It is not a "living document" that changes with the times, but written in stone. It is sad that there are people that consider it a living document. At that point it is not a document, but a Pandora's box........
Morality can be legislated, anything can be, but it should be extremely hard to do so. However, any issue of morality are issues for the individual states. The founding fathers knew that to meld so many people into a great nation, then the states had to be strong. For the states to be strong the people had to be bonded in commonality.
Although not a perfect quote for the arguement, if you read it with an eye ttorwards each individual level, with a mix of a little top-down on the federal level, and a lot of bottom-up from the personal level, I hope it can convey how I think this applies.
Hopefully, as people much more versed in philosiphy then I, it does not bore you.
[quote]Kong Fu-zi says:
The ancients who wished to illustrate illustrious virtue throughout the kingdom, first ordered well their own states. Wishing to order well their states, they first regulated their families. Wishing to regulate their families, they first cultivated their persons. Wishing to cultivate their persons, they first rectified their hearts. Wishing to rectify their hearts, they first sought to be sincere in their thoughts. Wishing to be sincere in their thoughts, they first extended to the utmost their knowledge. Such extension of knowledge lay in the investigation of things.
Things being investigated, knowledge became complete. Their knowledge being complete, their thoughts were sincere. Their thoughts being sincere, their hearts were then rectified. Their hearts being rectified, their persons were cultivated. Their persons being cultivated, their families were regulated. Their families being regulated, their states were rightly governed. Their states being rightly governed, the whole kingdom was made tranquil and happy.
[quote]
Peace
Joe |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2006 : 09:50:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
What is the difirence between Christians trying to legislate their beliefs, and moral relativists trying to legislate theirs?
Is there evidence that moral relativists have been trying to legislate morality? Being relativists, what morality could they possibly legislate?quote:
Your contempt by brushing all Christians with the same brush only serves to strengthen them theough, and in reaction to, your bias.
She didn't do so:I have been posting about the active attempt by a fairly sizable loosely organized religious group to inject themselves into everyone's lives by controlling every aspect of the government they can. She's talking about a subset of Christians, not all of them. That's been clear from my chair.
From the opening post of the thread:
quote:
There have always been Christians on a mission. And Evangelicals have always been out there recruiting.......But I'm really beginning to wonder just how dangerous these idiots are....
BGal then posted links to evangelical groups who are out there spreading the word through actions that are not idiotic, but generous. Sure, they are evangelical, but they are spreading a difirent theology then the current theology of the group (if that makes sense).
I have no problem agreeing with the other groups she has posted as idiots, but from my seat, she used a really wide-brush, and attacked the wrong groups with her opening remarks.
More later... gotta feed the baby....
Peace
Joe |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2006 : 10:01:42 [Permalink]
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The problem is this: These zealots, who have always been around, now have information such as guerrilla warfare tactics, bomb making, rapid transit and psycological tactics/etc. which are at their disposal and thus they become all the more dangerous.
I have bad news for you OI, nothing is inherantly evil, things just are, until labeled by an observer.*
*Until God comes down and proves me wrong...
EDIT: I would like to add that though I despise their ignorance of what I believe to be accurate, I respesct these people more than others because they actually follow through on the wild ideas they believe whole-heartedly to be true. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 09/20/2006 10:08:09 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2006 : 12:29:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
If I may be permitted a bit of quote mining....
quote:
What is the difirence between Christians trying to legislate their beliefs, and moral relativists trying to legislate theirs?
There is none, that is, up the point where one tries to force their version of 'morality' upon others. And at that point, it goes beyond the intent of the Constitution.
Some Christian cultists, whom we have all seen flapping their lips on the toob, are trying to do just that.
I agree. The constitution is a sacred document to me. It was beautifuul, even in it's ugliness. The beauty is that it gave clear-cut concise rules for changing it. It can only be changed if a large majority of the people want it to, not if a simple majority, or even a minority desire it. It is not a "living document" that changes with the times, but written in stone. It is sad that there are people that consider it a living document. At that point it is not a document, but a Pandora's box........
Morality can be legislated, anything can be, but it should be extremely hard to do so. However, any issue of morality are issues for the individual states. The founding fathers knew that to meld so many people into a great nation, then the states had to be strong. For the states to be strong the people had to be bonded in commonality.
Although not a perfect quote for the arguement, if you read it with an eye ttorwards each individual level, with a mix of a little top-down on the federal level, and a lot of bottom-up from the personal level, I hope it can convey how I think this applies.
Hopefully, as people much more versed in philosiphy then I, it does not bore you.
[quote]Kong Fu-zi says:
The ancients who wished to illustrate illustrious virtue throughout the kingdom, first ordered well their own states. Wishing to order well their states, they first regulated their families. Wishing to regulate their families, they first cultivated their persons. Wishing to cultivate their persons, they first rectified their hearts. Wishing to rectify their hearts, they first sought to be sincere in their thoughts. Wishing to be sincere in their thoughts, they first extended to the utmost their knowledge. Such extension of knowledge lay in the investigation of things.
Things being investigated, knowledge became complete. Their knowledge being complete, their thoughts were sincere. Their thoughts being sincere, their hearts were then rectified. Their hearts being rectified, their persons were cultivated. Their persons being cultivated, their families were regulated. Their families being regulated, their states were rightly governed. Their states being rightly governed, the whole kingdom was made tranquil and happy.
[quote]
Peace
Joe
In short, remove the boulder from your own eye before commenting upon the mote in your neighbors,
Good advice, even though it is rarely followed by anybody.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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