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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 09/30/2006 : 11:22:24
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Looks like this is one guy who at least has a name to the friend of a friend type stories.
http://www.pathguy.com/theism.htm
He has a huge website with all sorts of stuff on it, mostly medical as he's a surgeon and instructor.
The quoted part under How I decided is:
quote:
Second, I would cite the autoscopic near-death experience. As an empiricist, I cannot do much with tales of bright lights, panoramic memory reviews, and so forth. But I am impressed by tales of folks who have found themselves out-of-body who gained information that they could not have gained through their ordinary senses. Michael Sabom, M.D., who was a cardiologist at the Atlanta V.A., told me in 1989 that a large minority of his resuscitated patients remembered witnessing the event, and that their recollections were uniformly accurate. He played me a tape of man who watched his own open-heart surgery, and who said the same things that a layperson often does witnessing an autopsy. ("The heart isn't heart-shaped after all." "Look at the epicardial fat pads, I never knew they existed.") He accurately described which surgeon had blood spill into his shoe, and so forth. This should not happen if scientific reductionism is true. I think this means we finally have a reproducible finding in parapsychology -- and other doctors have been telling me for years about what seems to be spectacular ESP around the time of death. Regrettably, we have not been able to reproduce these findings among people who "can voluntarily leave their bodies".
Since both of these phenomena (heterodoxy in reports of miracles, autoscopic near-death experience) often occur in conjunction with supposed encounters with heavenly (or hellish) beings, I consider that belief in God is the best fit for the limited information available. So it's my working hypothesis. Actually I'm quite confident, though of course I'm tolerant of good people who have reached the opposite conclusion.
When you read on, it's apparent that while theistic, he's no fundy. In fact, he has some problems with the religious right itself. (Just to show that he doesn't seem to be out to convert people).
He even has links to skeptical and atheist sites as well as to religious sites.
I'll say this for him: He's open-minded and respectful of others views. Thing is, how could we test out what he says?
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
Edited by - the_ignored on 09/30/2006 11:24:38
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 09/30/2006 : 12:21:58 [Permalink]
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As a rule of thumb, while medical doctors are often quite intelligent, they normally aren't aware of the need to eliminate bias when conducting a scientific investigation. They are easily persuaded by such things personal anecdotes, and this will sometimes lead them to promote such things as a certain medication or therapy because they've "seen it work" in their patients, even when double-blind studies show them to be of no value.
For instance, even though here the doctor is only hearing reports second-hand, he apparently accepts at face value the assertion that these heart patients have knowledge "that they could not have gained through their ordinary senses." There is a fair amount of surgery portrayed on television, both fictional and documentary, and it isn't suprising that a majority of people have some idea what a heart operation might look like, or at the very least to already be aware that the heart isn't heart-shaped. That isn't even accounting for any pre-op consultations the patient will have had where the upcoming operation is described to them in detail. For instance, how in the world could a patient claim that they never knew the epicardial fat pads existed, yet still be able to name them properly? I suppose we are to believe they gleened this information while hovering over their body during surgery as well.
We know from tales of UFO abductions that people are able to fabricate false memories with a surprising degree of detail. We also know from investigations of psychics that people with a need to believe will often read far more into any given statement than is actually offered. For instance, what if a patient said something more along the lines of "there was more fat around the heart than I expected," and the surgeon himself thinks "he's talking about the epicardial fat pads!" Or a detail like blood spilling blood on the surgeon's shoe. How common an occurance is that? Could that guess fit most surgeries the same way the statement "you have a scar on your knee" fits most people? So there's a lot of questions that remain unanswered.
Another possibility, though one I consider less likely, is that the patients are simply remaining semi-conscious during surgery. In this hypothesis, the patients would simply be hearing their operation being performed and constructing a mental picture of it as it goes along. The "top down" perspective found in tales of OBEs is often associated with dreams.
I did hear of one long-running experiment when researches placed cards with codewords in high-traffic emergency rooms. The cards were situated in high locations, like above a set of lights, and turned so that they faced the ceiling. One important feature of this study was that none of the staff--the surgeons or nurses--knew what words were on the cards. Despite Dr. Sabom's claim that a "large minority" of patients routinely float out of their bodies during surgery, to date no one has ever correctly reported a word from one of the cards or, as far as I'm aware, even noted that a card was present.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/30/2006 12:37:32 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2006 : 12:55:06 [Permalink]
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Looks like proselytizing in disguise to me. One of the standard arguments/approaches: I have carefully evaluated...
A real 'careful evaluation' of the above selected piece for example would include a review of the literature on NDEs, not the typical 'there's no other explanation'.
Doesn't mean he is or isn't a doctor. Just means he thinks about as critically as Rat Robertson.
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2006 : 22:02:37 [Permalink]
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| The only person I knew who was resuscitated (deffibrllated 5 times in one night) did not have a near death experience. I think most people now know what sort of experience they are supposed to have and remember events accordingly. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2006 : 23:03:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
He played me a tape of man who watched his own open-heart surgery, and who said the same things that a layperson often does witnessing an autopsy. ("The heart isn't heart-shaped after all." "Look at the epicardial fat pads, I never knew they existed.") He accurately described which surgeon had blood spill into his shoe, and so forth. This should not happen if scientific reductionism is true.
Some open heart protocols involve the combination of anaesthetic and a paralytic agent.
There have been reports of people who received the paralytic agent, but not the anaesthetic agent (due to equipment failure).
This would leave the patient at least partially awake during the surgery and offer a more plausible explanation of why they recall specific details.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2006 : 23:29:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Some open heart protocols involve the combination of anaesthetic and a paralytic agent.
There have been reports of people who received the paralytic agent, but not the anaesthetic agent (due to equipment failure).
This would leave the patient at least partially awake during the surgery and offer a more plausible explanation of why they recall specific details.
But if the patient were paralyzed but not anesthetized, wouldn't that leave the patient in excruciating pain? What would happen to someone's heart rate in such a situation?
I suppose it's possible if the patient just wasn't fully anesthetized.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 00:14:34 [Permalink]
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Good to see you posting Ig!quote:
Originally quoted by the_ignored
This should not happen if scientific reductionism is true.
The first step is to find out exactly what this doctor means by "scientific reductionism," and then find out what he thinks should have happened under such a paradigm, specifically. Pronouncements like this aren't worth much without detailed explanations. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 00:35:43 [Permalink]
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H.H. said:
quote:
But if the patient were paralyzed but not anesthetized, wouldn't that leave the patient in excruciating pain? What would happen to someone's heart rate in such a situation?
I could leave them feeling severe pain, yes. The equipment failure could, as you also suggested, leave them only partially anesthetized.
Also, frequently, people who undergo bypass surgery either already have a pacemaker or they may be receiving medications to maintain their blood pressure, some of which have a side effect of elevated heart rate. There are several circumstances where this wouldn't be detectable or relevant.
This is a known issue:
http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2004-03-01/563.asp
quote:
About 100 Americans a day who receive general anesthesia during surgery suffer, like Brown, from "awareness," according to Dr. Peter Sebel, professor of anesthesiology at Emory University. The American Association of Nurse Anesthetists, based in Park Ridge, Ill., reports the figure could reach 40,000 a year.
http://qhc.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/14/3/e16
quote:
Patient awareness during general anaesthesia has considerable potential for severe emotional distress in the patient as well as professional, personal, and financial consequences for the anaesthetist.
Again, it seems to me the more plausible explanation for a patient being able to recall events in the OR. Especially if it is a case of the anaesthetic wearing off, maybe just for a short time, or the patient is minimally anaesthetized (enough to block pain but not totally block your hearing).
The whole OBE explanation implodes in the face of the patient just simply being awake (or partially awake) on the table.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 01:04:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
The whole OBE explanation implodes in the face of the patient just simply being awake (or partially awake) on the table.
Yeah, I just wasn't sure I found it plausible that a patient would recall details of the operation without also being aware that they were thinking "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!" the entire time due to the pain involved.
I'll buy partially-anesthetized, though. Thanks for the info, Dude.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 11:58:36 [Permalink]
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H.H. said:
quote:
Yeah, I just wasn't sure I found it plausible that a patient would recall details of the operation without also being aware that they were thinking "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!" the entire time due to the pain involved.
Yeah. I can't imagine how horrible it would be to have major surgery with no anasthetic, only a paralytic. It would be beyond fucked up by several orders of magnitude.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 16:03:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
<great big SNIP.....>
I did hear of one long-running experiment when researches placed cards with codewords in high-traffic emergency rooms. The cards were situated in high locations, like above a set of lights, and turned so that they faced the ceiling. One important feature of this study was that none of the staff--the surgeons or nurses--knew what words were on the cards. Despite Dr. Sabom's claim that a "large minority" of patients routinely float out of their bodies during surgery, to date no one has ever correctly reported a word from one of the cards or, as far as I'm aware, even noted that a card was present.
That's what I was looking for! I'd heard of those kind of experiments being done. Know the details on where I can read up on it?
beskepticgal
quote:
Looks like proselytizing in disguise to me. One of the standard arguments/approaches: I have carefully evaluated...
A real 'careful evaluation' of the above selected piece for example would include a review of the literature on NDEs, not the typical 'there's no other explanation'.
Doesn't mean he is or isn't a doctor. Just means he thinks about as critically as Rat Robertson.
I've read through his site...he's a D&D gamer. Doesn't sound too much like Robertson to me, and ol' Robbie wouldn't have links to sites that dispute his point of view.
Like I said, this guy is only mildly religious, not a fundy. Hell, he could maybe fit in on here.
On a side note: Anyone remember the name of the doctor who used to post here before his heart condition got to him? For some reason, this topic has made me think of him. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 17:11:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by the_ignored
That's what I was looking for! I'd heard of those kind of experiments being done. Know the details on where I can read up on it?
Haha, damn! I knew you were going to ask me that. I did try to remember where I read that when I originally posted it, but I came up empty.
I just tried looking again on some of the usual sites I haunt and found nothing with my searches. I seem to remember this study was conducted in New York City hospitals, but I can't verify that.
I'm really busy at the moment so I can't waste any more time now, but I promise to keep digging and try to get back to you. It's really bugging me now that I can't find anything about this experiment I'm remembering.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/02/2006 17:12:26 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 20:03:55 [Permalink]
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The NY Times ((free) reg. required, I'm sure) has a new article on the piece. quote:
[A]ccording to recent work by neuroscientists, [OBE's] can be induced by delivering mild electric current to specific spots in the brain. In one woman, for example, a zap to a brain region called the angular gyrus resulted in a sensation that she was hanging from the ceiling, looking down at her body. In another woman, electrical current delivered to the angular gyrus produced an uncanny feeling that someone was behind her, intent on interfering with her actions.
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| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 10/02/2006 20:04:28 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 04:32:51 [Permalink]
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It is possible to be awake with local anastetics, many operations do not require the patient to be asleep.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/321/7254/135.pdf
Heres a heart surgery while awake, also brain surgeries are preferred this way If I remember correctly.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 06:41:54 [Permalink]
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| Also a big article in todays NYT(10/3) about this very topic, specifically the angular gyrus study. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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