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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/09/2006 : 10:05:00 [Permalink]
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| Once again, the WWP is quick to criticize others, but does not answer questions about its organization. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 10:17:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Are you saying that Leslie Cagan is a Maoist and Stalinist? Maybe you're saying that everyone who protested the war is a Maoist and a Stalinist?
Be careful. That is not what I am saying at all.
I would not call someone who attended a Nazi-organized rally a Nazi. I would simply be asking them why they are there. I would be asking them why they are supporting that organization.
Same deal with anyone attending a communist-organized rally.
Nothing more than that.
If someone is opposed to the war, I can completely understand that sentiment.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 10:26:01 [Permalink]
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| I fully understand what you're saying and only slightly hesitate from agreeing completely. I don't think any of these people are baby-eaters. Again, it seems that the alternative to associating only with people with whom I completely agree leaves me alone in the world. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 11:05:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I fully understand what you're saying and only slightly hesitate from agreeing completely. I don't think any of these people are baby-eaters. Again, it seems that the alternative to associating only with people with whom I completely agree leaves me alone in the world.
I don't completely agree with anyone, either. But there is quite a difference of degree between how much I disagree with Republicans and how much I disagree with Nazis. There is quite a bit of difference of degree between how much I disagree with Democrats and how much I disagree with Communists.
If I were to only vote for someone who is for all the things I am for, and against all the things I am against, then I would never vote.
And it seems that is exactly what a lot of voters are doing. Not voting because they can't find someone who is entirely on the same sheet of music as they are.
It is either that or apathy.
In any case, this leaves the door wide open for extremists, both inside and outside the major parties. That is how my Republican Party was hijacked by "neo-cons" and religious zealots. That is how the anti-war movement was hijacked by communists.
I am far more frustrated with the destruction been wreaked upon the conservative movement from within than I am with anyone from the local ANSWER office.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 11:53:54 [Permalink]
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I don't think you can equate well-intentioned people who wouldn't hurt anyone and who think Stalin and Mao didn't hurt anyone with Nazis. However, since WWP people don't answer questions, maybe they do think that.
I don't know that I've reached this point or not, but I'm just about to the point where I think that it's best not to vote and validate a corrupt system. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 19:33:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
The collapse of the Soviet economy wasn't really because of any inherent flaw of the communistic system. It was dictatorship, nepotism, rigid thinking, and pride. In an attempt to "prove" communism superior, the leaders set unreachable goals for their system that eventually stressed the economy beyond breaking point.
Explain then what happens to keep people motivated if they are not rewarded for excelling? I agree neither capitalism nor communism work in their pure forms. To oversimplify the issues, one leads to concentration of wealth by a few but the other leads to only a few people being motivated by a desire to excel and the rest figuring why work harder when one gets the same as the guy who works less?
I'm all for providing the floor for the poor and disabled, and regulating to prevent the monopolies in capitalism. How do you correct for the inability to motivate people in a communist economic system? |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 10/10/2006 20:27:00 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 19:37:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
....
Luke, you're a brave man for volunteering to be the voice of dissent on this seemingly one-sided forum. :)
Right, and did anyone claim I was brave trying to discuss this same topic not only on a one sided forum, but one where insults were 80% of the arguments presented? At least here if people don't agree with you they don't resort to ad hom after ad hom. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 20:01:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Yoda
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Not one-sided? Ten against one, and no one with the sense to dig deeper than the WCW promotional material in the mainstream press? A whole lot of anecdotal evidence passing as fact?
And name calling as above? Luke T follow right-wing extremists? Please cite your proof or retract the statement. ...
From the JREF thread: quote:
#6 Check out more lunacy
#9 Join forces and rub elbows w/ communists, paranoid 9/11 conspiracy theorists, and anarchists! Fire bomb a newspaper office! Looks like a swell time....This takes place on a weekday though, no problem for the unemployed societal leeches that make up the bulk of rally participants but may affect your schedule. Bonus points if you wear your Che Guevara shirt.
#14 I can't make October 5th. I've set that day aside to rotate my lightbulbs and organize my sock drawer.
#17 Has the US handled Iraq properly (if it's even possible), and things been largely over at the end of the "major combat operations", nobody would be driving idiocy like this protest. The protest is protesting the wrong thing, a chimera that doesn't even really exist.
#18 I can't wait to find out the consequences of the truth of being a idiot idealist who thinks leaving work for 15 minutes and milling about with a bunch of like minded idealistic, smelly, unemployed idiots screaming about Bush is going to change anything.
#21 Cartman: Hippies.They're everywhere. They wanna save the earth, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad.
Officer Barbrady: You can't just lock 63 people in your basement.
Cartman: They're not people, they're hippies!
Cartman: I hate hippies! I mean, the way they always talk about "protectin' the earth" and then drive around in cars that get poor gas mileage and wear those stupid bracelets - I hate 'em! I wanna kick 'em in the nuts!
#24 Looks like I'm getting the super soaker out of the closet for some hippie hunting on Oct 5.
#27 Don't be so complacent, my Canuck friend. I'm digging out my old army BDUs, my boot knife, and an M-16, and me and my redneck buddies are coming for ya. Lock up the goats!
#28 Commies, anarchists and tree huggers sounds about right
#33 I'm beginning to think that skeptigirs's skepticism is rather narrowly focused.
#45 Wow, have you thought about this all by yourself?
#58 You are a skeptic, Skeptigirl? If you are, you're a brainwashed one.
#59 That's why we need communists, anarchists, and paranoid conspiracy loons running the country! Because those people are known for their honesty, integrity, and tireless commitment to human rights.
#61 But i have no doubt the totalitarians behind the WCW rally wouldn't mind show trials based on trumped-up charges. It's what communists do, after all.
#63 When the WCW people are in charge all POW's will be charged w/ crimes and summarily executed. After a big show trial on TV, of course.
.....
#80 Damnit, where are the national guardsmen with hair triggers when you need them? Oh, wait, they are in Iraq.
....
#362 Don't hold your breath. At this point, it's obvious that this entire thread is nothing more than spam posted by Skeptigirl to promote the march. She never had nor does she have any intention of discussing this issue or answering any of the many, many, questions posed to her.
There is a word for people who post things like this.
There are 10 pages filled with similar posts. There are very few replies that actually addressed anything I had to say despite my spending quite a bit of time trying to actually address issues rather than this nonsense.
I don't get the impression Luke is a right wing extremist and don't agree with that label. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 20:10:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
beskeptigal, in all seriousness, have you read the WCW site? Because if your agenda is the removal of Republicans from office and replacing them with Democrats, then you are in direct opposition to the WCW agenda.
You are continuing to equate a protest rally with one or some of the organizers. The rally drew from a broad base of support. I saw no evidence at the event of the stuff you keep thinking I should be aware of.
You present-> a website and a group's agenda and philosophy
I present-> the actual rally and all the people involved in it, the agenda of the rally organizers, not the separate agenda of a few, I repeat, a few of the hundreds of individuals that helped organize and attended the rally. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 20:15:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
For those who think it would have been better for America for Kerry to have won, you, too, are in direct opposition of the WCW agenda.
The WCW agenda is not the same as the Communist Party agenda.
The Mission of World Can't Wait quote:
World Can't Wait is organizing people living in the United States to take responsibility to stop the whole disastrous course led by the Bush administration. We seek to create a political situation where the Bush administration's program is repudiated, where Bush himself is driven from office, and where the whole direction he has been taking U.S. society is reversed.
We seek to mobilize millions to express their outrage, to speak the truth, to act with urgency and form an organized political resistance. We welcome any individuals and groups who agree that the Bush Regime should be driven out, whatever their political party affiliation or lack thereof. We reach out to people who have been fooled by Bush, and to those who have been most seriously affected by the outrages inflicted by the Bush Regime.
Check out the Call for The World Can't Wait - Drive Out the Bush Regime, written in summer 2005.
We drew our inspiration from...
The Not In Our Name Statement of Conscience which we encourage you to read, add your name to, and distribute broadly.
Excerpts:
"No election, whether fair or fraudulent, can legitimize criminal wars on foreign countries, torture, the wholesale violation of human rights, and the end of science and reason."
"It is our responsibility to stop the Bush regime from carrying out this disastrous course. We believe history will judge us sharply should we fail to act decisively."
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 20:16:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
I don't see the RCP site supporting the aims of the Democratic Party anywhere. But they plug the hell out of WCW.
Get it yet?
You keep linking to a promoter of the WCW but not the WCW site itself. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 20:19:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
Unless you think everyone should vote in the Communist slate, then you have nothing in common with WCW except that you want Bush out.
Let's try this statement without the straw.
Unless you think everyone should vote in the Communist slate, then you have nothing in common with the RCP except that you want Bush out. So it makes sense both RCPs and many many other groups should be interested in the WCW campaign. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 20:21:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Luke wrote: quote:
Speaking of reasonable alternatives, I bet a Cuban would be better off anywhere in America than in Cuba.
I do not agree with that at all. A poor Cuban would not be better off "anywhere" in America. In America they might end up in an area where there are overburdened social services, lots of gang violence and drugs, and horrible public schools. If there is one thing Cuba has been praised by other countries for, it is its social services.
I'll name another place, the Ninth Ward in New Orleans. Cuba was praised by many for how it managed the last significant hurricane to hit its shores. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 10/10/2006 20:29:04 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 20:25:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
That's why they are running through minefields and floating on barely navigable boats to get to American soil. Risking life and limb to escape. Because the social services in Cuba are so great.
Hey, if you are ever in Miami, chat up the Cuban ex-pats there and praise Castro's social services.
See where that gets you.
Think the propaganda we deliver to Cuba that the streets in America are paved with gold might have any influence there? Think the Castro hating relatives that are in FL and have contact with people in Cuba might have anything to do with that? And how much of Cuba's economic trouble is due to Castro and how much to the American embargo?
And there are people in Mexico who are dying to get here too. Mexico isn't a communist country now is it?
The world is not black and white, Luke. Cuba is not ALL bad and America is not ALL good. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 10/10/2006 20:30:36 |
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Master Yoda
Skeptic Friend
59 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2006 : 01:59:19 [Permalink]
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Beskeptigal,
Here's some in-fighting on the left on the topic of RCP and WCW. The second link actually quotes the FAQ from last year on WCW's site. The freely acknowledge the founding was driven by the RCP. You will also note that they no longer have this info on their FAQ or website.
http://advant.blogspot.com/2006/09/world-cant-wait.html
http://www.seattleaic.org/?p=9
Again, this stuff is from the left (in one case, the far left), and if anyone would know what the RCP and WOW are up to it's this side of the spectrum, believe me. I took the trouble to check the links you sent, but you never did the back-checking/fact checking or you'd know some of this by now. NON or Not in Our Name - was the predecessor to WCW. And it was a very well known front for the RCP. I wouldn't be surprised if their Statement of Conscience was written by Azakian, himself. It's definitely in his style of writing.
I'm probably politically a lot closer to Gorgo than Luke T. That doesn't stop me from agreeing with Luke, though, that one ought to know who they're supporting. Your repeated quotes from WCW proving that they're a harmless garden variety protest group are like responding to an anti-sugar post with messages from Nabisco.
I didn't say you called Luke T names - I was speaking to Gorgo. He and Luke are having an agree to disagree discussion, and I see no need to butt in. I see no more hostility in the multiple cites you make from the JREF thread than I saw in the initial responses here to Luke T. JREF just has more (and more finger-happy) posters, so you took the brunt of a lot of attention from a lot of different people. But you did so not because of your beliefs - there are numerous from the left at JREF - but because you keep posting WCW links and WCW text to support WCW. Nothing you posted was from an outside source, saying that they'd investigated WCW and found that the RCP had nothing to with them. As I said, this is not unlike posting the MacDonald's nutrition statement in response to Supersize Me.
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| Edited by - Master Yoda on 10/11/2006 02:00:49 |
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