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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/09/2006 : 08:57:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
What about Hussein's thirst for empire? What would you have had the United Nations do differently?
Stop its members from supporting and encouraging people like Saddam Hussein, and instead, support and encourage some of the people that its member states worked to kill and overthrow, like Mossadegh.
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quote:
We are threatening Korea, Cuba, and Iran how?[quote]
If I thought you were interested in knowing, I'd give you a reading list. Maybe you should start with Brian Becker.
[quote]
Would you have no sanctions against them? Do you find a moral equivalency between North Korea and the US? Cuba and the US? Iran and the US?
Castro has never terrorized the U.S. Can't say the same about the U.S. terrorizing Cubans. North Korea has never attacked the U.S. Iran has never attacked the U.S. Guess what? The U.S. has attacked and them and is still threatening them.
[quote]
Have you ever spoken to refugees from these countries? I have. Any comments about the nice things Castro does for his people are a disgusting farce in the face of reality.
I was stationed in Gitmo for three years. I saw people risk their lives to get through the minefields to our base. Some didn't make it. Every once in a while, we would hear an explosion and see a mushroom cloud and know someone tried and failed.
I spoke to a 17 year old Marine just minutes after he witnessed a Cuban soldier shot down in his tracks by his compatriots as he tried to make our fenceline. And there wasn't a goddammed thing the young Marine could do about it except watch.
None of that is good. I don't know these people, nor what they were trying to do. Nor was I asking anyone to live in Cuba. What I said was that I'd rather be a poor person living in Cuba than a poor person living in that crown jewel of capitalism, Haiti. In fact, there are probably some places in the U.S. that would make Cuba seem like a reasonable alternative, at least at times.
I also hinted at the fact that Cuba and Haiti might be better places had they not had a history of western imperialism. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:07:45 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, I'd like you to take a look at this speech given by Stalin in January 1933. It is all about the difficulty of getting a good harvest out of the Ukraine the past year.
http://www.marx2mao.com/Stalin/WC33.html
It all sounds very nice. Very bureaucratic.
You will notice something perhaps.
There is not one mention of the fact that Stalin was in the process of committing one of the greatest genocides in the history of mankind in the Ukraine at that very moment.
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As a matter of fact, alongside these defects, our work in the countryside shows a number of important and decisive achievements. But, as I said at the beginning of my speech, I did not set out to describe our achievements; I set out to speak only about the defects of our work in the countryside.
And there were people like you in the US at the time who refused to believe the genocide was occurring.
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/09/2006 09:10:25 |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:13:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo In fact, there are probably some places in the U.S. that would make Cuba seem like a reasonable alternative, at least at times.
At times? Now there's a strange qualification if I ever saw one.
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I also hinted at the fact that Cuba and Haiti might be better places had they not had a history of western imperialism.
Castro has had nearly 50 years to undo the evils of western imperialism.
Speaking of reasonable alternatives, I bet a Cuban would be better off anywhere in America than in Cuba. I know they would.
And where do you get the idea Haiti is a "jewel" of capitalism? I notice you did not say "democracy".
Is there ANY communist state that is not a royal clusterfuck?
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/09/2006 09:14:23 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:20:51 [Permalink]
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Luke wrote: quote:
Speaking of reasonable alternatives, I bet a Cuban would be better off anywhere in America than in Cuba.
I do not agree with that at all. A poor Cuban would not be better off "anywhere" in America. In America they might end up in an area where there are overburdened social services, lots of gang violence and drugs, and horrible public schools. If there is one thing Cuba has been praised by other countries for, it is its social services. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 10/09/2006 09:21:22 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:23:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
And there were people like you in the US at the time who refused to believe the genocide was occurring.
I understand your point on this and again, agree to a point. However, none of the people that you are mentioning advocate this sort of thing. They may or may not be dupes, but you will not see Brian Becker advocating anyone's death. Now, you may have evidence that he does, and that is welcome. I am not supporting these people. However, they are not, by starting rallies, getting anyone to agree to slaughter anyone, nor even agree that Stalin is a good guy.
If a Nazi started some other group that seemed not to be affiliated with Nazism that started a rally and didn't mention Hitler and wasn't racist in any way would I think it was terrible to join in if I agreed with the purpose of the rally? Probably not. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:24:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Luke wrote: quote:
Speaking of reasonable alternatives, I bet a Cuban would be better off anywhere in America than in Cuba.
I do not agree with that at all. A poor Cuban would not be better off "anywhere" in America. In America they might end up in an area where there are overburdened social services, lots of gang violence and drugs, and horrible public schools. If there is one thing Cuba has been praised by other countries for, it is its social services.
That's why they are running through minefields and floating on barely navigable boats to get to American soil. Risking life and limb to escape. Because the social services in Cuba are so great.
Hey, if you are ever in Miami, chat up the Cuban ex-pats there and praise Castro's social services.
See where that gets you.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:29:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
And where do you get the idea Haiti is a "jewel" of capitalism? I notice you did not say "democracy".
Any attempt at democracy in such places (many places, in fact, like Iraq, Iran, and Yugoslavia) has been repressed by the U.S. and its predecessors and friends. Note the latest "coup" bought and paid for by the U.S. in Haiti. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:34:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
And there were people like you in the US at the time who refused to believe the genocide was occurring.
I understand your point on this and again, agree to a point. However, none of the people that you are mentioning advocate this sort of thing. They may or may not be dupes, but you will not see Brian Becker advocating anyone's death. Now, you may have evidence that he does, and that is welcome. I am not supporting these people. However, they are not, by starting rallies, getting anyone to agree to slaughter anyone, nor even agree that Stalin is a good guy.
All I need to know about Becker is that he is a member of the WWP, which makes him a Stalinist. Someone who supports everything Stalin was about.
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
If a Nazi started some other group that seemed not to be affiliated with Nazism that started a rally and didn't mention Hitler and wasn't racist in any way would I think it was terrible to join in if I agreed with the purpose of the rally? Probably not.
That is not what ANSWER and WCW do. They ARE affiliated with Stalinism and Maoism.
Not looking into organizations you are supporting does not equal "seemed not to be affiliated". It means you didn't do basic research on them.
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
The only time I went to Washington for an anti-war protest was when the United for Peace and Justice people were involved. I can't say I know who they are, either.
United for Peace and Justice. What a nice name. Who could possibly be against things like peace and justice? These guys must be okay. No need to look into them, eh?
Anyone against nice things like peace and justice must be a red-baiting, pro-death, evil capitalist pig.
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/09/2006 09:35:33 |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:40:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Memorandum of Understanding between United for Peace and Justice and the A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition
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Signed by
Brian Becker for
A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition
(on behalf of the September 24 National Coalition)
http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=3161
Dammit!
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:42:29 [Permalink]
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Oh. Who signed for United For PEace and Justice?
quote:
Leslie Cagan for
United for Peace and Justice
So who's Leslie Cagan?
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Co-chair of United For Peace and Justice
Member of the Communist left since the 1960s
Founder of the Committees of Correspondence, a splinter group of the Communist Party USA
Ran a think tank promoting Castro's dictatorship
Set up Iraqi Occupation Watch to encourage U.S. troops to defect and undermine the US effort
http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=629
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:44:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Anyone against nice things like peace and justice must be a red-baiting, pro-death, evil capitalist pig.
I didn't pick their name, either. I guess, maybe they should have really lied about what they're doing like maybe united in "stopping genocide in Yugoslavia" or being United in the "war against terror" or "stopping Saddam's evil empire." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:44:17 [Permalink]
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Interesting development:
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It was with deep concern that we read a recent communication from United for Peace and Justice, sent out on Dec. 12 by its national coordinator, Leslie Cagan. It stated that the coalition had voted by a two-thirds majority to no longer collaborate with the ANSWER coalition in the anti-war movement.
We salute the one third of the member groups who put the need for principled unity of the anti-war movement first. They had the courage to stand up and resist the pressure to support what is a totally unprincipled measure, which can severely injure the unity of the movement at a critical time when there are new openings to escalate the anti-war struggle.
The UFPJ document is filled with orga nizational complaints about ANSWER. We believe that these organizational complaints are merely a cover behind which the UFPJ leadership is readying an open shift to the right, orienting to the so-called “anti-war” elements in the capitalist establishment and preparing to use the anti-war movement as a platform for promoting the Democratic Party in the 2006 elections.
http://www.workers.org/2005/us/ufpj-1229/index.html
BWA-HA-HA!
How dare they support the Democratic Party? Traitors!
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/09/2006 09:44:49 |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:45:50 [Permalink]
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That's a very interesting article.
quote:
It had the effect of forcing people to choose between going to a demonstration organized by anti-imperialist forces, who defended the Palestinian and Arab cause, or going to one called by the more moderate anti-war forces.
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:47:04 [Permalink]
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Notice the WWP said they salute the one third who DIDN't turn traitor and join the "more moderate anti-war forces".
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/09/2006 09:47:24 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 10:00:34 [Permalink]
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| Are you saying that Leslie Cagan is a Maoist and Stalinist? Maybe you're saying that everyone who protested the war is a Maoist and a Stalinist? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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