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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 10/04/2006 : 13:06:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
...If anything, what happened in their respective countries was underreported here. Mao and Stalin make Hitler look like a choirboy.
ETA: Do you think its Happy Days in Cuba and North Korea, too? The WWP and their ilk would have you believe so.
I'm curious how old you are, Luke?
I saw firsthand how the claim that evil communism had to be fought domino by domino distorted and hid the equally destructive actions by the right wing dictators supported by the USA.
The bottom line was Russia and the US, and to some extent China were all interfering with smaller countries and none of the three were doing the right thing by the majority of the people living in the dominoes.
North Korea has an atrocious government. But that doesn't make Somoza, the Shaw, Pinochet and others we supported any better.
Reagan may have believed in his actions but the people in the countries involved were always treated as irrelevant.
The capitalist economic system has emerged as clearly the better system, but unregulated, history may repeat itself with future revolutions if all the wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of too few again.
None of this has much to do with getting rid of this incompetent President at a time when the country is in ever increasing danger. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 10/04/2006 13:08:15 |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 14:13:13 [Permalink]
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I am 45 years old and a 20 year veteran of the military.
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 14:14:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I have checked it out and found that the two are seperate. ANSWER is not a WWP front group.
Then you are a fool. I have posted evidence here in this topic that they are.
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 14:19:09 [Permalink]
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Some well known Leftists who also realize ANSWER is a WWP front:
quote:
I suppose that it is possible that he has never before come across "International ANSWER," the group run by the "Worker's World" party and fronted by Ramsey Clark, which openly supports Kim Jong-il, Fidel Castro, Slobodan Milosevic, and the "resistance" in Afghanistan and Iraq, with Clark himself finding extra time to volunteer as attorney for the génocidaires in Rwanda. Quite a "wide range of progressive political objectives" indeed, if that's the sort of thing you like. However, a dip into any database could have furnished Janofsky with well-researched and well-written articles by David Corn and Marc Cooper—to mention only two radical left journalists—who have exposed "International ANSWER" as a front for (depending on the day of the week) fascism, Stalinism, and jihadism.
http://www.slate.com/id/2126913/
And that was written by Christopher Hitchens, who is Leftist himself.
The name of the article, "Anti-War, My Foot
The phony peaceniks who protested in Washington."
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/04/2006 14:19:58 |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 14:33:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Clarke is also co-founder and often chief spokesman and human face for International ANSWER , the grouplet that has headed up most of the large anti-war rallies of the past few years.
Meaningful, but as I said above, not surprising. ANSWER is, in turn, the creation of a cultish-stalinist group called the Workers World Party.
I wrote two years ago "?as an opponent of the war in Iraq -- that the liberal and democratic left was making a monstrous mistake in ceding the leadership of the anti-war movement to this wacky fringe who, indeed, supported not only Saddam but also Slobodan Milosevic as well as that nice family that runs North Korea. I predicted, as if it was any effort to do so, that a movement with these dimwits anywhere near its leadership was doomed.
Leftist Marc Cooper: http://marccooper.com/for-the-defense-of-saddam-ramsey-clarke/
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 14:37:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Now, those same cynics of the hard left have moved to the front of the current anti-war movement. The sponsors of what's being billed as a national anti-war demonstration in Washington on October 26, and their eminence grise, Ramsey Clark, express no displeasure with Saddam Hussein. Their world is two-toned and, as with the Old Left at its worst, it's always clear who's wearing the black hats. (Ramsey Clark belongs to the International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic, after all.)
This will not play in Peoria. It does not deserve to play in Washington.
Clark and others of his mindset are not only morally tainted, they're doomed. And the antiwar movement is doomed if they are allowed to lead it. Liberal-left antiwarriors need to be out-front patriots if they expect to draw the attention and the support of Americans at large.
Leftist writer Todd Gitlin as far back as 2002: http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/gitlin/2002/10/we_175_01.html
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 14:41:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
If public-opinion polls are correct, 33 percent to 40 percent of the public opposes an Iraq war; even more are against a unilateral action. This means the burgeoning anti-war movement has a large recruiting pool, yet the demo was not intended to persuade doubters. Nor did it speak to Americans who oppose the war but who don't consider the United States a force of unequaled imperialist evil and who don't yearn to smash global capitalism.
This was no accident, for the demonstration was essentially organized by the Workers World Party, a small political sect that years ago split from the Socialist Workers Party to support the Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956. The party advocates socialist revolution and abolishing private property. It is a fan of Fidel Castro's regime in Cuba, and it hails North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Il for preserving his country's “socialist system,” which, according to the party's newspaper, has kept North Korea “from falling under the sway of the transnational banks and corporations that dictate to most of the world.” The WWP has campaigned against the war-crimes trial of former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic. A recent Workers World editorial declared, “Iraq has done absolutely nothing wrong.”
Officially, the organizer of the Washington demonstration was International ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War & End Racism). But ANSWER is run by WWP activists, to such an extent that it seems fair to dub it a WWP front.
Leftist writer David Corn, in 2002.http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/behind-the-placards/3458/ |
| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/04/2006 14:44:07 |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 14:42:39 [Permalink]
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So even Leftists recognized ANSWER as a WWP front right at the very beginning of the movement. Before the war even started.
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/04/2006 14:43:14 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 14:52:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Then you are a fool. I have posted evidence here in this topic that they are.
I don't mind getting sarcastic and flustered myself, but why start with the name calling? He may or may not be wrong, but that doesn't make him a fool. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 16:45:36 [Permalink]
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Luke T. said:
quote:
And that was written by Christopher Hitchens, who is Leftist himself.
HAHAHA! Awesome. Hitchens is a leftist only if you are so ultra-far-right that you percieve the rest of the universe through a red-shift.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 16:47:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Luke T:
It is my opinion these rallies are nothing more than recruiting venues for these organizations and their communist ideology.
You know, many of us were much more open to consider communism as a reasonable way to go back in the 60's, and it still didn't happen. Why on earth you would think that communist recruitment would work now is simply baffling to me. I was a member of the Students for a Democratic Society, the SDS, a very left leaning organization. And when someone tried to push “the little red book” into my hands I laughed out loud. Today, it would be even sillier…
quote:
Luke T:
As for politics making strange bedfellows, that is a total cop-out. I wouldn't be caught dead at a Nazi-sponsored rally against a Democratic president.
As I understand it, it is a coalition of groups. I don't really care if there is a radical element. There almost always is.
quote:
Luke T:
The weak-minded are allowing themselves to be led by extremists.
If we are as weak minded as we were 30 years ago, I would relax if I were you. And by the way, this country has a far greater chance of going to the extreme right than it does in going to the extreme left. If I were going to worry, and I do, I would worry about that.
quote:
Luke T:
No they didn't. They were more successful at damaging the Democratic Party than anything else. It was a suicide cult. Just like now.
Yes, the party was damaged in 68. But the Chicago demonstrations probably wouldn't have happened if Robert Kennedy hadn't been assassinated. Be that as it may, it was the continuing demonstrations that turned the people of this country against the war. Even Nixon ran on his plan to end the war, lying bastard that he was.
And what is this leftist this and leftist that crap? Who qualifies as a leftist and what does that mean? Do you think all of us who are on the left are communists? Why would we subscribe to a failed economic system? You hiss out leftist like it's a bad word that no one should be caught dead being. I hate to break it to you but these days it's the leftists who would like to see a balanced budget…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2006 : 05:29:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I have checked it out and found that the two are seperate. ANSWER is not a WWP front group.
Then you are a fool. I have posted evidence here in this topic that they are.
No, sir, you have not. And like the JREF debate, you have yet again assumed that since the two share the same building, just like any other office flat, that the two must be the same operation.
And again, like the JREF thread, I will have to point out that by that logic, the hospital I work for must also be a part of Playboy, Inc because we share the same building.
I remain skeptical of your claims due to research I have done. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2006 : 07:00:31 [Permalink]
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Anyone see any protestors yet? There's none here in MI except the union tin smiths that have been picketing a local construction project for the last 2 weeks.
Also - 2 cents - this country is in sore need of more leftists. We're so far to the right today that our left is what the right was 30 years ago.... |
-Chaloobi
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2006 : 14:17:08 [Permalink]
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Damn, even the Leftist Village Voice is slamming WCW today:
quote:
But despite this broad support, World Can't Wait is at heart another spin-off of the Revolutionary Communist Party, an ultra-left Maoist group founded in the 1970s and headed by the reclusive Bob Avakian.
The RCP folks have long been good at harnessing star power. They tend to churn out more youthful, less stodgy rallies than the stalwart United for Peace and Justice, going back to the RCP's days organizing Refuse and Resist concerts in the 1980s, which were supposed to deliver us from the perils of the Reagan administration.
More recently, the RCP helped instigate the antiwar coalition, Not In Our Name, which in turn helped kickstart the antiwar movement in 2002.
We bring up the RCP's role not to redbait, but to point to the fundamental contradiction of a movement that rightly lambastes the Bush administration for its use of indefinite detentions and torture abroad, yet relies on the leadership of a group that embraces a mass murderer like Mao, even critically defends Pol Pot, and which currently cheerleads Peru's Shining Path and Nepal's Maoist guerrillas--groups that have been condemned for grave human rights violations of their own.
(Indeed, the Shining Path guerillas, who are known to forcibly conscript Indians and brutalize peasants, oppose the the very notion of human rights, terming it "bourgeois.")
Beyond the RCP's questionable politics are the shortcomings of World Can't Wait's rather simplistic vanguardist vision: the idea that skipping work or school and rising up in the streets for a day will somehow catalyze a popular revolt against the Bush regime:
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/05/2006 14:17:29 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2006 : 14:26:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
Damn, even the Leftist Village Voice is slamming WCW today:
And they make it sound like the RCP and its spinoffs are completely ineffectual at meeting their goals, so what are you worried about? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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