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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
 Posted - 10/05/2006 : 14:29:33 [Permalink]
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Small turnout in Seattle:
quote:
About 150 demonstrators against the Iraq War gathered Thursday morning on the University of Washington campus in Seattle in Red Square.
They then marched to a rally Thursday afternoon in the Capitol Hill neighborhood, before planning to march to an all-night sit-in outside the Federal Building in downtown Seattle.
http://www.komotv.com/stories/45826.htm
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2006 : 14:32:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
Damn, even the Leftist Village Voice is slamming WCW today:
And they make it sound like the RCP and its spinoffs are completely ineffectual at meeting their goals, so what are you worried about?
I didn't start this topic. And this is a skeptic's forum. Seems an extra effort is required to help people see what these organizations are all about and who is behind them. People are choosing to remain blind in the face of overwhelming evidence.
Thought they might want to know they are being conned.
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/05/2006 14:33:25 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2006 : 17:41:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
I didn't start this topic.
Did I state or imply that you did?quote:
And this is a skeptic's forum.
Indeed.quote:
Seems an extra effort is required to help people see what these organizations are all about and who is behind them.
There seems to be some dispute over that, but that doesn't appear to be what has you so concerned.quote:
People are choosing to remain blind in the face of overwhelming evidence.
I've seen some quite reasoned responses to your posts, ranging from "you're wrong" to "who cares," after which you often just reiterated what you'd said before. I've also seen people trying to engage you in discussion, which you rejected. In general, you're not coming off well here.quote:
Thought they might want to know they are being conned.
But if the picture that the Village Voice paints is correct, you'd probably get a better reaction by not focusing on the communists, and instead pointing out that these people generally have a long history of failure, so to invest effort in their protests is a waste of time. Whatever their politics might be, if they're so bad at it that they've got no strong accomplishments, then that is the con. Leftist, rightist or centrist, who gives a damn if their efforts don't affect change?
Similarly, even if you're absolutely correct, Luke, but your methods change no minds, then what's the point? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 02:33:57 [Permalink]
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There were about 2,000 Luke. I was there. Your 150 figure isn't correct. It's possible that was some reporter who didn't stay long enough to see how many people were there. I've seen reports like that before and they don't always run a correction.
About half gathered at the UW and marched to the park. The other half including us started at the park. After the speakers, both groups marched downtown. We didn't because my neighbor wasn't able to walk. He was having hip trouble. We're a bunch of old hippies I guess. Interesting mix of young and old there.
It was still a small turnout compared to out last march, "Not In Our Name". We had a good 20 blocks of packed marchers then.
Turned out 2 of the speakers today were from my little neighborhood group of Progressives. I rode with my neighbors who know the local activist people better than I do. They knew the speakers would be there but I hadn't connected the names to the faces until I saw them. One of the speakers I remember because he was a Dennis Kucinich delegate at the Democratic Caucus 2 years ago. I was a Kerry delegate and another neighbor (different than the ones I was with at the march) was a Dean delegate. Kucinich was very anti-war all along. I think he's been one of the few Congressmen to be against the war from the beginning.
Only obvious communist I saw was one guy with their newspaper. There was some mention of the Democrats not being the best representatives either but not one word about anything even remotely related to either the Communist or the Socialist Worker's Party or any radical actions.
We had a brief moment of excitement when some anarchists got arrested and the crowd surrounded the cops and got a bit rowdy. Later I heard they also arrested some guy carrying a shotgun. That wasn't good. I'm glad I didn't see him it would have been scary considering past shooting incidents.
A few of the most dedicated will be staying the night at the Federal Building so there may be more news tomorrow. But the organizers really wanted no trouble. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 10/06/2006 02:36:12 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 02:56:21 [Permalink]
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War Protest Turns Violent
This protest turns violent headline is a crock. The incident lasted less than 5 minutes out of the 4 hours I was there.
Hundreds march in Seattle, Portland against Bush
You have to watch a brief commercial but if you watch the "raw video" you can see a pan of the actual march which shows how many people were there. They say a few hundred. The 2,000 figure was what the same station used on the 6 O'Clock news on King 5.
Many of the pictures at the park are misleading because at the park people were very spread out. And the article you linked to Luke said several hundred, not 150. Even so, it was only half the group.
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 06:45:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.But if the picture that the Village Voice paints is correct, you'd probably get a better reaction by not focusing on the communists, and instead pointing out that these people generally have a long history of failure, so to invest effort in their protests is a waste of time.
I have pointed that out. Several times. Read my posts again.
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 06:54:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.Seems an extra effort is required to help people see what these organizations are all about and who is behind them.
There seems to be some dispute over that, but that doesn't appear to be what has you so concerned.quote:
People are choosing to remain blind in the face of overwhelming evidence.
I've seen some quite reasoned responses to your posts, ranging from "you're wrong" to "who cares," after which you often just reiterated what you'd said before. I've also seen people trying to engage you in discussion, which you rejected. In general, you're not coming off well here.
I have posted clear links from the ANSWER sites showing, to repeat, from their own sites, who the organizers are. And then I have shown those same names as being active in the WWP, again using their own sites.
I have posted links to left wing sites and left wing writers who also say they have found these organizations to be communist fronts.
If all of that doesn't convince you, then it isn't my problem. It is yours. You are choosing to clamp your eyes and ears shut to maintain a delusion.
And you are also utilizing the typical backup position of, well, even if they are communists, they aren't very effective so why not talk about that?
Face it. They are communist fronts. Sorry if that hurts your feelings or that you don't want to hear the truth and want to talk about something else now.
Sorry if you don't want to know that anyone who attends these rallies are dupes of a communist organization.
Ask yourself this. Why is it acceptable to attend a march put together by communists, but not one by nazis? Even though both are equally heinous.
Why are all kinds of leaps and twists in logic employed to say it is okay or no big deal?
"Who cares."
Exactly the problem.
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 06:55:58 [Permalink]
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The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend.
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 06:58:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend.
An enemy is not always wrong. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 07:18:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
I have pointed that out. Several times. Read my posts again.
Okay, I will:And that's where I came in.
Nowhere do you say, "don't waste your time with these people because they're lousy at what they're trying to do."
The closest you come to discussing the ineffectualness of the group(s) is in this early post, in which you said,I bet is just mystifies the daylights out of you why the anti-war movement makes such little headway in the mainstream media, doesn't it? But the implication is that the movement doesn't get media attention because it's being run by communists, and not because the people running the show are simply bad at what they're trying to do. (Which happens to be contradicted by the quote in your subsequent post, "...WWP has been extremely effective in organizing the massive anti-war rallies of recent years...")
The next-closest thing you said was in this post,They were more successful at damaging the Democratic Party than anything else. But once again, you were focusing on their politics, and not their inability to accomplish their goals.
You also wrote:quote:
And you are also utilizing the typical backup position of, well, even if they are communists, they aren't very effective so why not talk about that?
No, I was trying to be helpful, but if you're just going to be hostile and insult anyone who happens to try to talk with you, then forget it. It is obvious to this reader that no matter whether you're right or wrong about the communists, your constant hammering on it fails to accomplish your goals. It's obviously your choice to continue to beat your head against a wall, but you frankly look like an idiot doing so. But that isn't my problem, it's yours. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 09:36:26 [Permalink]
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I'll make it real simple for you, Dave. This topic was started to encourage people to attend the WCW rallies.
So. What does the WCW want? Read their site.
They want Bush and the Republicans out, to be replaced by...what?
Not Democrats. That's for sure.
So if your goal isn't to get Bush and the Republicans out and replace them with leaders who have communistic plans, why exactly should one support a WCW rally?
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/06/2006 09:37:10 |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 09:47:58 [Permalink]
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I submit the answer to my last question is, "Because it is the only anti-Bush game in town."
The movement has been hijacked by the extremists, and people who attend their events have let them. They don't have the energy or will to get their own movement going. Too lazy. It's easier to just show up than to organize.
And it is that very laziness that makes the movement ineffective.
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/06/2006 09:48:44 |
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 10:13:09 [Permalink]
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You can be much more effective by actively participating in the campaigns of candidates you support. Even if it means just stuffing envelopes for them. Making phone calls to get out the vote.
Real hard work. Shitty work. But much more effective.
You can be more effective by keeping the loonies out of the movement. Shun them. Don't support their rallies.
You can be more effective by writing reasoned position papers and presenting them before the legislature.
I did all of these things when I was still a teenager. I know what works and what doesn't.
I still write to my Representatives and Senators.
I will give you two examples of a hypothetical situation, and see if you can guess which one would have more of an impact.
Let's take the proposed Constitutional amendment to ban the burning of the flag. Do you know just how close the vote has been on Capitol Hill to making this a reality?
Very close.
Now imagine a WCW rally, or an International ANSWER rally against this amendment under the banner of protecting free speech. All the usual loonies are behind it.
Now imagine a rally comprised of moderate thinking Americans, organized by moderate thinking Americans. Imagine a 20 year military veteran who has voted the straight Republican ticket for his entire life (with one exception) standing before this crowd. He is holding in his hands a "shadow box" which is given to all veterans upon the occasion of their retirement. This shadow box contains all of his military medals and awards and a plaque listing all of his duty stations during his 20 years of service. This is all topped off with a folded flag and is contained in a paneled wooden box with a glass front.
This shadow box is one of his most treasured possessions.
Now imagine that vet taking the flag out of his shadow box and burning it in protest of a flag burning amendment. A man who swore to, and did, defend the Constitution for 20 years.
Pretty powerful image, eh?
I have sworn that should such an amendment ever pass, that is exactly what I am going to do. If possible, I will do it on the steps of our nation's Capitol building. I will be one of the first people arrested for violating the law.
But if one Che Guevera T-shirt or any such type loony is in attendance, I will not do it until they are cleared away.
Let them make their own speeches in their own venues. They are not invited to mine.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 10:44:10 [Permalink]
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| Yes, let's make sure the "loonies" and "fools" are cleared away before this person who's more important than anyone can speak. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Luke T.
Skeptic Friend
140 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 11:05:19 [Permalink]
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It's a matter of effectiveness.
You can include the loonies and get nowhere, if you like.
You can attend one of their marches for a day and delude yourself into believing you are really doing something to bring about change, too, and that your goals coincide.
Or you can do the hard work that is required to actually make changes happen.
That's what's so great about America. Lots of choices.
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| Edited by - Luke T. on 10/06/2006 11:06:54 |
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