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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 09/26/2006 : 11:51:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Paulos23
...may the spirit of Edward Murrow watch over him.
Wasn't that a great touch? So clearly intended. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 12:13:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
It ain't all black and white, Gorgo.
Black and white? The murder of thousands of people is in some grey area to you? Better that both Clinton and Bush played with Monica and Bush's horse than commit the crimes they both committed.
The rest is just noise. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 12:24:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Fault Wallace for asking a question? Olberman instead applauds criminal actions like the bombing of the al-Shifa Pharmaceutical factory.
It's fine to say Bush did nothing. It's fine to say that Clinton did something. It's not fine to whitewash either's crimes.
Gorgo, in the bigger picture here, I'm not so sure the evidence is clear about the factory bombing incident. We do know there was some actionable evidence, it wasn't bombed to wag any dogs. We know the Republican/Rove/Bush spin machine has reinforced the belief the incident was re wagging dogs and no evidence of nerve gas production was found. I believe Clinton has since concluded the evidence of nerve gas production was not sufficient and he has publicly stated he regrets his actions.
But from the bigger picture, you want to equate Clinton's error with the massive errors of the Bush regime. So let's compare.
Whether accurate or not, Clinton really did have evidence of nerve gas production in the factory, he had evidence of Bin Laden's ties to the factory and to the previous embassy bombing. Clinton was trying to respond to the previous embassy bombing in a forceful way.
Bush had evidence of Saddam's WMDs which was refuted by our own CIA well before we invaded Iraq. Bush hid that fact from the American public. Saddam was not linked to 9/11. Bush had plans to invade Iraq before even taking office (I have documented this before). Bush exploited the 9/11 event, not to wag a dog, but to fulfill a goal he and his band of neocons had prior to 9/11. In doing so, Bush dropped the ball again, (he also had dropped the ball from the time he took office until 9/11).
Clinton's actions failed. Bush's failed and most experts now agree has made the situation much much worse. Clinton admits to a mistake and has expressed remorse. Bush exploited 9/11 knowingly and despite contradictory evidence claims he believed there were WMDs in Iraq and denies any remorse.
It seems those who have had faith in Bush's decisions are having a hard time recognizing or admitting the decisions were wrong. The person having the hardest time with this is Bush himself. Today's response by Bush to the report on the Iraq war, not just failing, but exacerbating the problem was of complete unbelievable denial.
Bush to declassify parts of key intel report President says NIE leak was political, denies Iraq has worsened terrorism
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 09/26/2006 12:26:51 |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 12:28:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo...
Please, both of you once try to pay attention. Olbermann APPLAUDS Clinton's criminal bombing of al-Shifa. That makes my remarks germane and makes you the whiners.
Wow, Gorgo, either you've been reading an entirely different article than that which was linked in the original post, or you have deplorably poor reading comprehension skills. Go re-read the opinion piece linked from the original post. There is not a single mention of the word "al-Shifa" in the entire article. And the words "applaud" and "bomb" are each only found once in the article, both in the following statement...Had it been true that Clinton had been distracted from the hunt for bin Laden in 1998 because of the Monica Lewinsky nonsense, why did these same people not applaud him for having bombed bin Laden's camps in Afghanistan and Sudan on Aug. 20, of that year? For mentioning bin Laden by name as he did so? Olbermann was clearly expressing curiosity about why the Bush spin machine didn't applaud Clinton for having bombed bin Laden's camps given their accusation that Clinton was distracted from his concern for bin Laden. Olbermann wasn't applauding anything there. So it looks like you're pulling your commentary out of your ass again, Gorgo, and with the fairly obvious purpose being to interject a little more whining about how all those presidents and ex-presidents are criminals. That issue is only tangentially related to the subject of the thread, and therefore it is your comment which is not germane.
So please, Gorgo, rather than continuing to try to hijack this thread, why don't you open a whole new thread if you want to complain about the criminal activities of all those presidents?
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 12:53:38 [Permalink]
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The reference to Sudan, GeeMack, included the factory bombing.quote:
U.S. missiles pound targets in Afghanistan, Sudan - Sudanese television reports El Shifa Pharmaceutical plant burns after Thursday's strike in Sudan - Clinton: 'Our target was terror'; August 21, 1998
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- American cruise missiles pounded sites in Afghanistan and Sudan Thursday in retaliation for the deadly bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania on August 7.
"Let our actions today send this message loud and clear -- there are no expendable American targets," U.S. President Clinton said in a televised address to the American people Thursday evening. "There will be no sanctuary for terrorists. We will defend our people, our interests and our values."
U.S. officials say the six sites attacked in Afghanistan were part of a network of terrorist compounds near the Pakistani border that housed supporters of millionaire Osama bin Laden.
An official of the Taliban, Afgahanistan's Islamic rulers, reported 21 were killed and 30 were injured in the missile strikes in eastern Afghanistan.
In the Sudanese capital, Khartoum, the El Shifa Pharmaceutical Industries factory -- which U.S. officials say also has ties to bin Laden and produces chemicals that can be used to make deadly VX nerve gas -- was heavily damaged.
In retrospect, this is clear evidence Clinton was aggressively addressing terrorism and it supports Clarke's claim in his book, Clinton never let the Monica mistake interfere with his job.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 09/26/2006 12:54:46 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 13:03:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
So please, Gorgo, rather than continuing to try to hijack this thread, why don't you open a whole new thread if you want to complain about the criminal activities of all those presidents?
In an effort to act like you care about clearing up the subject, let me just say how it seems that you think it's a good thing to indiscriminately bomb other countries. Let's say that Olbermann was not applauding al-Shifa. Let's say that he was suggesting that others applaud the bombing of other sites in Afghanistan and Sudan. Let's say that he said, "Hey, I think bombing al-Shifa was criminal, but gosh, it's a good idea to lob missiles across borders indiscriminately without any regard for international law or life itself." That sounds a lot better, doesn't it?
Are you and pals like V.D. here simply to be insulting, or did you have another motive? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 09/26/2006 13:04:59 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 13:12:36 [Permalink]
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Olbermann is one of those rare journalists who can put elements together and craft ideas that most of the rest of us hadn't quite put together. It's not that we hadn't made the same connections as Olbermann, it's just that all those talking, political trees were distracting us from the mutant Neocon forest. Sometimes we need people like Olbermann (or Edward R. Murrow) with the ability to show the grand view for what it is.
Bravo!
As long as we can see people like Olbermann on TV, my worries about already being in a dictatorship will be kept at bay. However, if Olbermann is fired, or has something nasty happen to him, consider him to have been our canary-in-the-mine. Then it's "to the barricades!"
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 13:15:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal...
The reference to Sudan, GeeMack, included the factory bombing.
Thanks for the link, beskeptigal. Actually I was aware of the situation to which Gorgo was referring. My comments were in regards to his blatantly false comments, "Olberman instead applauds criminal actions like the bombing of the al-Shifa Pharmaceutical factory," and "Olbermann APPLAUDS Clinton's criminal bombing of al-Shifa." In the article linked from the original post, Keith Olbermann did not applaud Clinton's bombing of anything. If he applauded anything it was Bill Clinton's self defense against the Bush administration's strategy to reduce their own culpability for the 9/11 situation by passing blame onto other parties.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 13:26:17 [Permalink]
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| Evidently the answer is that you and your ilk are only here to be insulting. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 13:34:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">, and about someone standing up to that despicable tactic, it isn't about Bush's specific misdeeds, and it certainly isn't giving a pass to former presidents or administrations for their misdeeds.
Please, both of you once try to pay attention. Olbermann APPLAUDS Clinton's criminal bombing of al-Shifa. That makes my remarks germane and makes you the whiners.
[/quote]
Olbermann applauds the effort to go after terrorists and terrorism based on the best intelligence that he had. Hasty generalization. Again, I question the relevance of the remark.
The questions meant to embarass were crafted to make the former President appear to conform to the ideal of bumbling and soft on terrorism (essentially blaming 9/11 on Clinton). As it is inaccurate to say that Clinton did nothing, the question posed by the FOX interviewer was to embarass. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 13:43:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Evidently the answer is that you and your ilk are only here to be insulting.
This thread was about the exposure of neo-con lies about the actions of a past President. You, Gorgo, chose to enter this discussion with a rant concerning the criminal nature of the United States government. That rant was unrelated to the OP.
Please return to the OP subject.
Thanks, |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 14:05:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo...
In an effort to act like you care about clearing up the subject, let me just say how it seems that you think it's a good thing to indiscriminately bomb other countries.
Then your reading comprehension skills are far poorer than I had even imagined. Or maybe you're deluded.
quote:
Let's say that Olbermann was not applauding al-Shifa.
Yes, let's say he wasn't because he wasn't. Good start. But from here you only go down hill.
quote:
Let's say that he was suggesting that others applaud the bombing of other sites in Afghanistan and Sudan.
I can't imagine why you'd say that, again unless your reading comprehension skills are seriously sub-par, or perhaps you're not able to think rationally. Olbermann didn't suggest anything of the sort.
quote:
Let's say that he said, "Hey, I think bombing al-Shifa was criminal, but gosh, it's a good idea to lob missiles across borders indiscriminately without any regard for international law or life itself." That sounds a lot better, doesn't it?
Intentional strawman? Maybe you completely misunderstand the theme of the article? Or perhaps you're just not sane enough or intelligent enough to get it?
You have completely misrepresented nearly everything I've said so far in this thread, Gorgo, and you've completely misrepresented the subject of Keith Olbermann's commentary from the linked article. Again it begs the question, are you pretending to not understand, or are you simply incapable of understanding?
quote:
Are you and pals like V.D. here simply to be insulting, or did you have another motive?
The motive, both mine and Valiant Dancer's, was clearly to try to avoid having you hijack this thread by throwing one of your tantrums about the criminal acts of various presidents. But you obviously won't leave it alone and go start a new thread, which would be the polite and prudent thing to do. So it's all yours now, Gorgo. For lack of ability to understand, to stay focused, to stay honest, and/or to be rational, you've hijacked it. Let 'er rip.
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 15:24:11 [Permalink]
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YO: I wish to focus on Gorgo's comment about Chris Wallace. (Quote follows this paragraph.) I assume with the sentence below ending with a question mark that it is rhetorical; meaning Wallace shouldn't be faulted for it. If that's the intent of Gorgo's interrogative, here's my reply. Especially fault Wallace for it because, when asking it, he rationalized the query because so many F-Word "news" watchers wanted it asked. I say, bullshit! Any journalist worth his salt takes responsibility for his own questions, certainly not trying make it something the viewers made him do. I would imagine it was producers at F-Word News that made Wallace do it. But I think that Keith Olbermann covered, even, this in his magnificient commentary last night wherein he called G. War Bush what he (the president) really is: a goddamned, lying coward.
Grow a pair, George!
OY!
[quote]Originally posted by Gorgo
Fault Wallace for asking a question? |
"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me
"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty
"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde
"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus
"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 15:39:10 [Permalink]
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| Before I re-read and watch the video, I'm going to assume that I'm wrong about all that I said and apologize. I was out of line for laying into GeeMack and Valiant Dancer, and probably wrong about derailing the thread. If after some time to reflect I think I was wrong about my remarks about the thread, I'll say so, but I will not take back my apologies to GeeMack and Valiant Dancer for laying into them. They will stand whether my original remarks were wrong or not. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 15:55:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Before I re-read and watch the video, I'm going to assume that I'm wrong about all that I said and apologize. I was out of line for laying into GeeMack and Valiant Dancer, and probably wrong about derailing the thread. If after some time to reflect I think I was wrong about my remarks about the thread, I'll say so, but I will not take back my apologies to GeeMack and Valiant Dancer for laying into them. They will stand whether my original remarks were wrong or not.
From one recent apologizer to another, that was well stated, Gorgo.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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