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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 09/26/2006 : 16:36:15 [Permalink]
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1) Clinton admits that the question is legitimate and "is perfectly fine." His objection was that Fox did not ask Bush the right questions. That may or may not be true, but Olbermann seems to be out of line by saying that Chris Wallace did not take responsibility for the question. That would mean to me that he said that he did not ask the question, or did not want to ask the question. He's not denying responsibility for asking the question. He is saying, and probably rightly, that it's on people's minds and they're emailing him about it, and there was a book about it. Clinton then said why it's on people's minds, and no one can deny that. Clinton looked foolish by talking about Wallace's "smirk," but otherwise, he handled himself well, and other than that little outburst didn't seem all that angry.
2) On the point of al-Shifa, no one talked about that directly, but Olbermann seems to say that Republicans were wrong for criticizing what Clinton did. If you think that falls short of Olbermann's applauding what Clinton did, I still fail to see the distinction. What Clinton did was criminal. Bombing other countries is a violation of international law. If they thought al-Shifa had toxic chemicals, how smart was it to bomb such a place? If you research the topic, however, you'll see that it wouldn't have taken a Rhodes scholar to figure out that the U.S. government knew that it was a pharmaceutical plant, and that they did very little research into what was happening there.
I would refer one to this group of articles on the subject:
http://www.zmag.org/chomreply.htm |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 17:28:54 [Permalink]
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Gorgo hijacks another thread to rant about how criminal the US gov is....
You do know that many of us agree with your basic premises on this subject, but you always take it several steps beyond what can be supported by evidence.
In this instance your falacious claim that "bombing other contries violates international law" defeats your entire point and makes you look like a frothing idiot.
Cite the treaty (start a thread, don't do it here), and specific passage, that the US is signitory to that makes it a violation of international law for us to bomb other countries.
Anyway, back OT.
You should be glad there is a journalist out there who is willing to call the Bush admin and the neo-con spin machine out on their lies. Instead you make yourself into a fool by stretching reality past its breaking point and claiming that Olberman is applauding the bombing of a pharmacutical plant.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 17:38:26 [Permalink]
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| Sorry, Dude. No international law. Anything goes. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 17:46:59 [Permalink]
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See, the problem is Gorgo thinks war itself is criminal, and so he can't understand why any act of war isn't considered a crime.
A noble sentiment perhaps, but irrational.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 17:59:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
See, the problem is Gorgo thinks war itself is criminal, and so he can't understand why any act of war isn't considered a crime.
A noble sentiment perhaps, but irrational.
A crime in a certain sense, yes, but not a violation of international law necessarily. Some of you seem to think that Nuremberg never happened, that the U.S. is not a member of the U.N. and that there is no problem with murdering thousands of people. I don't understand that position. WWII did happen and the U.S. is subject to the UN charter. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 18:03:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
lies. Instead you make yourself into a fool by stretching reality past its breaking point and claiming that Olberman is applauding the bombing of a pharmacutical plant.
Olbermann is saying that Clinton's illegal actions are legitimate attempts at reducing international terrorism. Are you disagreeing with that at all? Clinton's actions were international terrorism, and you, like most of the media, including Chris Wallace, are whitewashing these criminal actions. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 18:09:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Some of you seem to think that Nuremberg never happened, that the U.S. is not a member of the U.N. and that there is no problem with murdering thousands of people. I don't understand that position.
You don't understand it because no one holds that position. Killing someone is not always the same as murdering them.
But again, this isn't the thread to rehash these grievances you hold.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 18:31:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
You don't understand it because no one holds that position. Killing someone is not always the same as murdering them.
But again, this isn't the thread to rehash these grievances you hold.
Killing someone in violation of the law is murder. Bombing pharmaceutical companies,is a violation of international law.
But again, this isn't a place to rehash things you disagree with (with no evidence to back you up) unless you have the last word. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 18:40:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Killing someone in violation of the law is murder. Bombing pharmaceutical companies,is a violation of international law.
But again, this isn't a place to rehash things you disagree with (with no evidence to back you up) unless you have the last word.
Gorgo, if you think anyone should let you accuse them of endorsing murder without retorting then you have serious issues. It has nothing about "getting in the last word," but about correcting the errors in your emotionally-charged rhetoric.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 18:43:44 [Permalink]
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YO: An open letter to Gorgo.
Lolita's boyfriend is right. What we're discussing here is not whether murdering or killing people in wars or terrorist attacks, or what have you, is right or wrong or a crime. But rather, ISN'T IT ABOUT TIME THAT SOME NATIONALLY KNOWN TV NEWS PERSONALITY LAYS IT ALL OUT ABOUT GEORGE W. BUSH and his miserable tenure as the
'elected' president of the USA here in the 21st century? Bush's intractability, his lack of vision, his lack of sensitivity, his lack of diplomacy...(I can go on and on with this list) are all very serious matters regarding our nation. Maybe in another thread and another time we all can discuss the finer points of dispatching other human beings in times of political turmoil, which, by the way,
is the only thing that Mr. Bush has shown he has any talent for; of course, that would mean Iraqi deaths as well as our own military. One other thing I should list with respect to what Mr. Bush is good at: he and his regime are good at stealing elections.
Please, let's keep our eye on the thread point: Mr. Olbermann's long awaited commentary regarding the lowest point in the history of the American presidency.
I recall FDR. How far back can you remember?
Thank you.
OY!
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"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me
"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty
"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde
"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus
"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 20:53:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Olbermann is saying that Clinton's illegal actions are legitimate attempts at reducing international terrorism. Are you disagreeing with that at all?
I will disagree with that, for the simple reason that Olbermann's own views on whether or not any particular action is a legitimate attempt to reduce international terrorism aren't in evidence.
Olbermann was saying that Bush and the people who got him elected think that what you describe as indiscriminate bombings are a legitimate attempt to reduce international terrorism, yet they refuse to give Clinton credit for following their own game plan.
The legitimacy of the actions is irrelevant to Olbermann's point, which is that the Republican Party has been caught with its hypocritical pants down on this particular Clinton issue.
If you think that's a "whitewash," then it just seems like you're missing the big picture here. We're living under a truly irrational administration which has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that finds lies and propaganda to be legitimate attempts to sway public opinion. Within such a political atmosphere, Gorgo, your obvious desire to have past and current presidents brought up on charges aren't going to get much of a toehold anywhere.
Your efforts would be better spent, in my opinion, towards the formation of a more rational government in the near term, so that once some form of reason is back in place, your complaints can be heard.
Perhaps, though, you're a cynic who thinks that a reasonable government is a contradiction in terms, in which case you should already think that your complaints aren't going to do any good, ever. I hope you're not such a defeatist, though. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 01:23:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Olbermann was saying that Bush and the people who got him elected think that what you describe as indiscriminate bombings are a legitimate attempt to reduce international terrorism, yet they refuse to give Clinton credit for following their own game plan.
They accused him of "wagging the dog" and we haven't seen any evidence from Olbermann that these are really legitimate attempts to end terrorism, and not either simply murderous attacks for murder's sake or "wagging the dog." I take that and his indignation to mean that he thinks that we need no further explanation, that these ilegal attacks are really legitimate attempts to end terrorism that should be applauded. I don't know whether or not he was "wagging the dog." That would require some proof that they were in fact legitimate attempts to end terrorism.
We're living under a criminal administration, much like the criminal administrations that existed before this one. That's the point that's missed. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 09/27/2006 01:31:34 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 01:25:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
I recall FDR. How far back can you remember?
On some days, about fifteen minutes. My first vote was cast for Nixon's second term. I don't think I've ever voted for anyone that won since.
I said it's fine that Olbermann talked about what Bush or Clinton did or didn't do. Bush did nothing. I wish he had continued to do nothing. Most of what should have been done is police work. He should have stayed out of it. So should Clinton. Neither one of them has a clue as to how to run police work. Police work, again, is not seeing how many people you can murder for no good reason, which is the only thing gained by attacking, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Haiti, Afghanistan, Sudan, and probably some other places that I'm not aware of or not thinking of, not to mention helping Israel and other countries act the same way. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 09/27/2006 01:30:35 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 01:54:19 [Permalink]
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Gorgo said:
quote:
I said it's fine that Olbermann talked about what Bush or Clinton did or didn't do. Bush did nothing. I wish he had continued to do nothing. Most of what should have been done is police work.
And if you stopped right there, there is a good chance that most people here would agree with you.
There is no international law that forbids war or acts of war. None. Your continued insistence that such a thing exists has become tiresome, as has your Phelps-esque ranting about how US troops are criminals for fighting.
The US is a participant in the UN, and that means that we have agreed to follow through on UN resolutions. The UN is not a body that makes any laws.
For the 20th time you have been asked to give us the relevent treaty to which the US is signitory which makes all war illegal, and you still can't do so.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 02:50:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Your continued insistence that such a thing exists has become tiresome, as has your Phelps-esque ranting .
What you decide to become tired from is your decision, and has nothing to do with the discussion. Your insulting tone doesn't help. I have repeatedly posted sources which refute what you say, yet you never support your statement that international law does not exist.
The U.S. is a signatory to the U.N., which is the law of the land, according to the U.S. Constitution, which makes treaties the law of the land. Look it up. I've posted sources several times. I don't know where this idea that international law doesn't exist came from. The U.N. charter and Nuremberg makes attacking other countries without following certain criteria illegal. It's all in black and white.
U.N. was ratified as a treaty: Article six, Clause two of the Constitution makes treaties the law of the land. The U.N. Charter (which you can look up yourself) lays out the rules by which one country can attack another.
U.N. ratified as a treaty:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/rams20.shtml
Article six of the Constitution:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Six_of_the_United_States_Constitution |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 09/27/2006 02:54:56 |
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