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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2006 : 10:06:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
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Clinton's ... actions against Iraq, Yugoslavia, Sudan and Afghanistan were as illegal and, more importantly, stupid, as those of GW.
No way in hell are these comparable. Even if you believe Clinton's actions were stupid and illegal, you lose all credibility claiming those actions are anywhere on the scale of GW's. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 10:11:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Olbermann faults Wallace for being some kind of pawn of the right wing, but no one seems to notice that Wallace at least asked a legitimate question and that there is no reason to think that O is anything more than a pawn for the left side of the right wing, and simply makes a sideshow of the fact that politicians smear one another, while ignoring their crimes.
I don't know. Faux news has a much more top down control of their talking points. Outfoxed revealed the daily briefs they get advising them of the points to try to get inserted into the day's comments. MSNBC has a few right wing commentators and the same 'ol filters you don't see on broadcasts like Democracy Now, but I do think Olbermann was giving his personal op ed there. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 10:13:14 [Permalink]
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| Your premise seems to be that I lose all credibility if I disagree with you. Clinton illegally attacked all those places, except Haiti, he just continued the work that others had begun there. Bush illegally attacked all those places plus Haiti. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 10:20:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
The media gives every president a pass on their crimes.
The media brought down Nixon. The media dogged Clinton for eight years. You are just wrong about that.
[/quote]
The media brought Nixon down when he stepped on the wrong toes. They did not bring him down for illegally attacking Cambodia and Laos, and his other crimes in Southeast Asia.
Fine. Clinton is better than Bush. Al Capone was worse than Lucky Luciano. So what? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 10:26:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
Clinton illegally attacked all those places
Heh. And yet the Bush administration is on his case for not doing enough! They are blaming him for the actions that they are taking now. As I said; they wallow in it. And yet, you don't see the difference, first in the lies by this administration about Clinton and foreign affairs and second in the fact that they actually believe (if you follow their logic) that Clinton should have waged a full-scale war like they have done.
Honest Gorgo, you don't seem to be able to recognize the forest for the trees…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 10:29:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
They did not bring him down for illegally attacking Cambodia and Laos, and his other crimes in Southeast Asia.
Again you're just wrong here. The secret bombing of Cambodia was all over the news. And articles of impeachment that included those things you mentioned were being written up even as Nixon stepped down…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 10:30:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Your premise seems to be that I lose all credibility if I disagree with you. Clinton illegally attacked all those places, except Haiti, he just continued the work that others had begun there. Bush illegally attacked all those places plus Haiti.
No Gorgo, you lose credibility when you claim mountains and molehills are equal. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 10:31:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
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What a bunch of weasels they are at Fox.
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I was especially disappointed with Juan Williams' comments on Fox because on NPR one had a much different view of the man.
Juan Williams is on Fox? WFT? That's about the oddest career move I could think of for him. Is he a right winger too???  |
-Chaloobi
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 10:32:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
No Gorgo, you lose credibility when you claim mountains and molehills are equal.
The attack on these places did not start with Clinton either, but we'll never know the damage Clinton did in Iraq and Yugoslavia for that matter. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 10:49:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
See, the problem is Gorgo thinks war itself is criminal, and so he can't understand why any act of war isn't considered a crime.
A noble sentiment perhaps, but irrational.
Are you seriously saying that it's irrational to regard war as criminal??? Wars are mistakes - failures of compromise, negotiation, rational thinking, responsibility and decency.
For there to be war, at least one of the entities involved either irrationally attacks it's enemy or has been GOADED into attacking it's enemy by irrational provocations. Either way, at LEAST one of the parties involved has done something negligent, irrational, ignorant or stupid. What war has not resulted from some kind of criminally negligent government decision?
I am perfectly willing to admit I'm wrong, if you show me so. Think of a war where this is not the case, where both sides entered the conflict responsibly, reasonably and justly and post it. I would be fascinated to see it.
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-Chaloobi
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 10:59:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
The attack on these places did not start with Clinton either, but we'll never know the damage Clinton did in Iraq and Yugoslavia for that matter.
Eisenhower made the commitment to South Vietnam to stop the spread of communism. Kennedy responded to that commitment by sending troops. (If Robert's words mean anything, John was having second thoughts about the wisdom of a war in Vietnam around the time he was assassinated.) Johnson, who greatly expanded the troops fighting in Vietnam thought the best way out of it was to win the war. He probably thought we were trying to stop the spread of communism too. When he saw that the war was not winnable, or that he couldn't win it, he decided not to run again. Nixon tried to win the war by increasing the number of troops and bombings and engaged in secret activities that were clearly illegal. Then, when he saw he couldn't win, he promised that if he was re-elected he had a plan for peace that would work. In other words, he kept the war going to win an election, thusly allowing many people to be killed or injured for his own personal gain. After he was elected, he simply pulled out of Vietnam…
I ask you, who was worse? I was against the war from the git-go. But what Nixon did was unconscionable. Of all of those who thought that stupid foreign policy was a good idea, only Nixon had people killed for his own personal gain.
Not unlike Bush…
The lesson here is that wrong-headed foreign policy happens. But there are those who are special cases in that they really don't care about what is good for America or the people in other countries. Bush is one of those, and so was Nixon.
Only Bush is worse…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 11:43:38 [Permalink]
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| Reagan and Wilson were quite bad as well. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 09/27/2006 11:44:12 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 12:18:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Reagan and Wilson were quite bad as well.
I think Reagan was very wrong headed. And I know he broke the law. (Arms sold to Iran, a known enemy, to support his war in El Salvador against and act of congress, among other things.) But oddly, I don't think any of it was for personal gain. I think Reagan was actually motivated by an unselfish vision that happened to be very wrong.
Not that that gets him off the hook, but I think Bush and his pals are just plain evil.
Edited to add:
You mean Herbert Hoover?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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