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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2006 : 13:01:14 [Permalink]
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Joe Conason writing in the New York Observer: quote:
The most amusing part of the confrontation between former President Bill Clinton and Fox News Sunday anchor Chris Wallace came in the immediate aftermath, when the bullies of cable and their wingnut gang shrieked about the mean, crazy man picking on them.
I've found Conason to be reliable in the past, and this looks like he hasn't changed much.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 13:32:21 [Permalink]
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chaloobi said:
quote:
Think of a war where this is not the case, where both sides entered the conflict responsibly, reasonably and justly and post it. I would be fascinated to see it.
The US revolution? Both sides had legitimate reasons for fighting that war, the British to put down a terrorist uprising in their territory and the colonies to escape from what they percieved as unjust trade and taxation policies.
There are others.
While I would agree with you that conflict should always be the last resort, there are times when the use of armed force is the only ption left. For much of human history war was seen as a very legitimate way to settle disputes.
Calling all wars criminal is irrational until you can show us a law that makes all wars illegal. You may feel that war is wrong, and you probably wouldn't get much dissent from that opinion here, but that is not the same as war being an inherently criminal act.
Val said:
quote:
Dude, that was out of line.
Even though Gorgo has repeatedly spun responses to him, calling him an asshole is over the line.
You are entitled to your opinion.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 14:37:10 [Permalink]
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Kil, I keep looking for articles of impeachment that mention Nixon and Kissinger's illegal attack on most of Southeast Asia and don't see it. Do you have a source on that?
http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/impeachments/nixon.htm |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 15:39:38 [Permalink]
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Here it is. The House would not include the bombings. Nor was anything at all said about COINTELPRO, as I recall.
The press itself kept Cambodia a secret until Beecher broke the story. The Defense Dept. denied that story, and everyone believed it, for the most part.
quote:
The secret bombing of Cambodia involved the same abuse of power and political manipulation of government agencies as Watergate, but only a few Congressional representatives like John Conyers, Elizabeth Holtzman, and Edward Mezvinsky supported Drinan's Cambodia article, which was soundly defeated by the House impeachment committee 26-12.
by Judith Coburn
TomDispatch
November 22, 2005 |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 15:44:43 [Permalink]
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YO: Just THIS In...
www.pastdeadline.com%2Fclueless_in_new_york%2Findex.html" target="_blank">http://www.rawstory.com/showoutarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pastdeadline.com%2Fclueless_in_new_york%2Findex.html
Orwellingly Yurz sez: This story about Keith Olbermann getting mail at his home with white powder in it shows us how stupid some are around us; and how even more stupid the New York Post is for writing that's something to laugh at. But, let me quickly interject here, before Gorgo or somebody else who wants to take this latest Olbermann event, and comments regarding it, off onto something about the New York Post having First Amendment protection to laugh at such an occurence as sending a death threat to a TV news talk show host and anchor....(breath)....PLEASE!...we already know and believe that the New York Post has a right to play to the low standards of its readership and show how unprofessional it is.
With hope, there'll be some who'll will continue to appreciate that there is, at least, one person in the broadcast media who is not testicularly challenged like, say, Bill O'Really?, Sean Insanity and Roosh Limpbatt.
OY! |
"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me
"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty
"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde
"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus
"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde |
| Edited by - Orwellingly Yurz on 09/27/2006 15:48:38 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 15:51:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Kil, I keep looking for articles of impeachment that mention Nixon and Kissinger's illegal attack on most of Southeast Asia and don't see it. Do you have a source on that?
http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/impeachments/nixon.htm
I checked the Articles of Impeachment on Nixon and was surprised to not see the secret bombing of Cambodia mentioned. However, I watched the Impeachment proceedings on television and at the hearings, they talked about it extensively. Apparently there was an article four that never made it into the final draft, where only three articles remain, if indeed there was a final draft, considering that Nixon resigned.
quote:
From President Richard Nixon, Henry Kissinger, and the Bombing of Cambodia:
The enormity of Nixon's lies afforded him the opportunity to commit atrocities in Cambodia bordering on genocide. In the Nixon impeachment hearings, the fourth article of impeachment charged that Nixon:
... had violated his constitutional oath of office in that he "on and subsequent to March 17, 1969, authorized, ordered and ratified the concealment from Congress of the facts and the submission to Congress of false and misleading statements concerning the existence, scope, and nature of American bombing operations in Cambodia and derogation of the power of Congress to declare war... and by such conduct warrants impeachment and trial and removal from office." (William Shawcross, Sideshow)
Bolding mine.
I'm sure I could find more on this. The point is, it came up and to some extent it was written out as the above demonstrates.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 16:32:48 [Permalink]
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No. The only time it came up was in the Senate hearings, and then the only question was, why was it a secret?
The murder of how many Southeast Asians was never an issue. COINTELPRO was never an issue. Only stepping on the toes of the powerful put Nixon out of business. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 17:35:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
No. The only time it came up was in the Senate hearings, and then the only question was, why was it a secret?
The murder of how many Southeast Asians was never an issue. COINTELPRO was never an issue. Only stepping on the toes of the powerful put Nixon out of business.
Well, they talked about it in committee while the TV cameras were on them. I know because I saw it. So much for keeping it a secret. And, the media was all over it, as I said.
Oh, by the way, keeping it from congress was the point. Not a side issue. Congress could not do anything about it, like say no, if Nixon didn't tell them what he was planning… |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 17:57:34 [Permalink]
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| It was a secret for months. I haven't figured out exactly when the story broke after Beecher's story. It was only a secret because the press itself censored it. Sihanouk tried to tell everyone who would listen. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 18:45:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
It was only a secret because the press itself censored it. Sihanouk tried to tell everyone who would listen.
You better provide some sources for that claim. Everything I have read and looked at today says that Sihanouk knew about the bombings and kept silent, and the press, with the exception of William Beecher, who put it together, knew nothing.
quote:
William Beecher: The Secret Bombing of Cambodia
Together with what I'd been gathering, I knew I had it nailed. I wrote the story. The Times published it below the fold on page one on May 9, 1969. The story had a lot of detail--about the overall Administration strategy, about the fact that Prince Sihanouk of Cambodia had been briefed so he wouldn't publicly complain about the bombing of his sovereign territory, about the fact that the South Vietnamese military had been briefed so their cross border military forays wouldn't be hit. And so forth.
You would have thought that such a story would have caused a firestorm. It did not. (Although the FBI was charged with finding out where the story had come from. They failed, by the way.)
The Pentagon spokesman, when asked, dismissed the story as "speculative." When reporters went to some of their best sources, they were told: "I'm pretty sure that if this was going on, I've have been told. I have not been."
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 21:22:21 [Permalink]
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Still waiting for a US treaty that makes it a violation of law to attack another country.
C'mon Gorgo, you are so sure that you are right, then it should be nothing at all for you to link the proper treaty.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 23:43:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
I think Reagan was very wrong headed. And I know he broke the law. (Arms sold to Iran, a known enemy, to support his war in El Salvador against and act of congress, among other things.) But oddly, I don't think any of it was for personal gain. I think Reagan was actually motivated by an unselfish vision that happened to be very wrong.
Not that that gets him off the hook, but I think Bush and his pals are just plain evil.
Edited to add:
You mean Herbert Hoover?
Don't know about Hoover's foreign policy. Wilson sent US troops to other countries a number of times, mostly Central America. It was interventionism or imperialism I was referring to.
Obviously Reagan sent troops a number of times as well. In Reagan's case it was his belief he had to keep the commie dominoes from falling. Bush and Reagan are not very comparable. Reagan believed in his cause and we got the whitewashed picture of what his actions resulted in. But Bush had this Iraq target and lied his way in. Really a different set of circumstances. And I guess I'd say while I didn't agree with Reagan's beliefs about the domino theory, nor how best to address it, Reagan at least I assume listened to other people and didn't surround himself with yes men. Bush is incompetent it seems to me.
My Dad believed the very same thing Reagan did. Both my Dad and Reagan were products of the post WWII competition with Russia for control of trading partners and maintaining corporate access to resources and other interests like infrastructure they had invested in. (Of course the deals the corporations struck were not with the people but rather the corrupt leaders.) What my Dad and Reagan both failed to comprehend was the oppression of the people in those countries was the driving force for communist movements, not Russia's interference.
Russian interference was similar to ours in the countries close to their borders. But in countries at a distance, communist sentiment was driven by poverty and great disparity between rich and poor. My Dad recognized that underlying issue, but never seemed to connect the dots that changing the conditions was the key, not aiding the armies of the rich in oppressing the poor further. My Dad was oblivious to the death squads and terrorist tactics we encouraged or at least supported in Central America and elsewhere. I saw the results first hand.
That was a life changing experience. And I still have conflict to this day with what seems to me to be those Americans who never took that trip out of the country to a place where we were sending military support and training to an oppressing army. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 09/27/2006 23:45:30 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2006 : 04:13:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Still waiting for a US treaty that makes it a violation of law to attack another country.
C'mon Gorgo, you are so sure that you are right, then it should be nothing at all for you to link the proper treaty.
Yes, I'll continue to play that game. I post a lot of links, which you don't read, cuz all you have to do is insult and say, "That ain't so, Gorgo" without actually adding anything sensible to any conversation. Hold your breath while I do that. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2006 : 11:22:13 [Permalink]
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Well, I understand that there are extreme right-wingers, like Bush and Dude, who think that the U.S. has no obligation to act in the way that they expect others to act. That's my only point on that. Not that I think Bush is going to prison tomorrow, or that I have any love for the power-greedy UNSC. That's another problem I have with the U.S. We could be working towards an effective, more democratic U.N. Instead, they're working to weaken the power of the people of the world, out of fear of losing power and $$$$$$$$
Article 51 is about countries only attacking other countries when they are under attack. Otherwise, problems should be taken to the UNSC. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 09/28/2006 11:24:27 |
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