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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
 Posted - 09/17/2006 : 10:53:09 [Permalink]
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This one, probably not. The radical Islamists.. definitly.
Idiots? That's close-minded bias. If it is Christian, it must be bad? |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 10:53:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
beskeptigal:
It just seems like there is no end to this indoctrination. I have to wonder how it is they are getting all these people to think they have the answer.
Ahhhh, but there may be a generational split developing among the evangelicals over politics and science. Here is an opinion piece from yesterdays LA Times.
Meet the New Evangelicals
quote:
In a subtle yet tectonic shift, a slightly younger, considerably less pugnacious and less reflexively Republican generation of conservative leaders is bidding to dislodge familiar faces such as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Focus on the Family's James Dobson and the Southern Baptist Convention's Richard Land, who have held a virtual monopoly on the role of movement spokesmen for more than a decade.
And:
quote:
In his political flexibility, Hunter is reflecting the sentiments of the people in his pews. For example, a national study released Tuesday, conducted by Baylor University and the Gallup organization in the fall of 2005, found that nearly 40% of evangelicals surveyed did not agree that the Iraq war was justified and that 38% no longer had a high level of trust in President Bush. Other research has shown evangelical diversity of views on such issues as tax policy, the death penalty and the role of women in society.
"Within evangelical Christianity there exists a greater multiplicity of political opinions than is widely assumed," David Gushee and Justin Phillips write in a forthcoming article for the Journal of the Society of Christian Ethics. "In our view, the subtle emergence of a robust evangelical center is one of the most promising developments in evangelical life today and therefore in American public life."
The open question is whether these changes will make a difference politically, especially in close races in which a slight shift by white evangelicals can change the outcome. Will Democrats take advantage of this generational shift in "kinder, gentler" leaders who talk more softly and rail against global warming? Is the GOP's most dependable voting bloc in play? We won't know until November and beyond.
Edited to add:
I have always been against missionaries. They destroy cultures and worse. And since Christianity is a proselytizing religion, I doubt that they will go away. The best we can possibly hope for is that they temper their political message while doing their work
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 01:35:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
This one, probably not. The radical Islamists.. definitly.
Idiots? That's close-minded bias. If it is Christian, it must be bad?
While the radical Christians might not be targeting you, OI, they have targeted plenty of people. More recently it's been gays and abortion clinic workers who've been killed. Around the world, Christians have been in some of the conflicts. And they have been major perpetrators of terrorism in the past.
This page is an eye opener, scroll down and look at the chart.
But I wasn't thinking so much of violence when I posted that. I was thinking of the movement in this country to take over the government. There is an active concerted effort to stuff the courts and local offices like school boards with pro-Christian candidates. It's one thing when your community votes for a certain candidate. It's quite another when a minority receive outside money to influence an election or get a bill passed.
Here in WA we have a right wing Evangelical group putting on hundreds of negative TV ads against a State Supreme Court Judge to promote 'their' candidate. It's quite alarming IMO. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 09/18/2006 01:40:23 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 02:34:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
This one, probably not. The radical Islamists.. definitly.
Idiots? That's close-minded bias. If it is Christian, it must be bad?
Nah, not necessarly. But tell me: what is the difference between a fundelmentalist, Islmaic, terroist idiot and his Christian counterpart? Apart from dogma, that is.
Historicly, Christians have been just as foul as any other group when it comes to terror, and Christian terrorists are still with us today.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 04:50:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
This one, probably not. The radical Islamists.. definitly.
Idiots? That's close-minded bias. If it is Christian, it must be bad?
While the radical Christians might not be targeting you, OI, they have targeted plenty of people. More recently it's been gays and abortion clinic workers who've been killed. Around the world, Christians have been in some of the conflicts. And they have been major perpetrators of terrorism in the past.
This page is an eye opener, scroll down and look at the chart.
But I wasn't thinking so much of violence when I posted that. I was thinking of the movement in this country to take over the government. There is an active concerted effort to stuff the courts and local offices like school boards with pro-Christian candidates. It's one thing when your community votes for a certain candidate. It's quite another when a minority receive outside money to influence an election or get a bill passed.
Here in WA we have a right wing Evangelical group putting on hundreds of negative TV ads against a State Supreme Court Judge to promote 'their' candidate. It's quite alarming IMO.
Money, from both sides, goes wherever it can do the most good for that side. Here in KY, we have a left wing non-Evagelical group putting on negative TV ads against what the majority wants. That's politics.
Both sides want what they want, not what is best or right. Both sides are going to stuff the Supreme Court and every other court with people that follow their views.
Calling the Christian-right idiots is one thing. A blanket statement covering those groups is another.
Peace
Joe |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 04:57:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
This one, probably not. The radical Islamists.. definitly.
Idiots? That's close-minded bias. If it is Christian, it must be bad?
Nah, not necessarly. But tell me: what is the difference between a fundelmentalist, Islmaic, terroist idiot and his Christian counterpart? Apart from dogma, that is.
Historicly, Christians have been just as foul as any other group when it comes to terror, and Christian terrorists are still with us today.
Totaly agree. But there is a big difirence between the Cleric, Preist, or Rabbi that is out in peace and the scoundrels out trying to kill.
Within the radicalized aspects of the religions, it is not so difirent. Whether it be Catholic vs. Protestant in Ireland or Shitie vs. Sunni in Iraq, or for history buffs.... The Crusaders sacking Constantinople.
Peeace
Joe |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 04:57:40 [Permalink]
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On a related matter: quote:
Film Shows Youths Training to Fight for Jesus
New Documentary Features Controversial Bible Camp, Evangelical Movement
By DAN HARRIS
Sept. 17, 2006 - An in-your-face documentary out this weekend is raising eyebrows, raising hackles and raising questions about evangelizing to young people.
Speaking in tongues, weeping for salvation, praying for an end to abortion and worshipping a picture of President Bush -- these are some of the activities at Pastor Becky Fischer's Bible camp in North Dakota, "Kids on Fire," subject of the provocative new documentary, "Jesus Camp."
Worshiping the tinhorn Bush?!! Pu-leease! 
Get 'em young and brainwash 'em early. Yeah B'gal. We should be concerned.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 05:29:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
This one, probably not. The radical Islamists.. definitly.
Idiots? That's close-minded bias. If it is Christian, it must be bad?
Nah, not necessarly. But tell me: what is the difference between a fundelmentalist, Islmaic, terroist idiot and his Christian counterpart? Apart from dogma, that is.
Historicly, Christians have been just as foul as any other group when it comes to terror, and Christian terrorists are still with us today.
Totaly agree. But there is a big difirence between the Cleric, Preist, or Rabbi that is out in peace and the scoundrels out trying to kill.
Within the radicalized aspects of the religions, it is not so difirent. Whether it be Catholic vs. Protestant in Ireland or Shitie vs. Sunni in Iraq, or for history buffs.... The Crusaders sacking Constantinople.
Peeace
Joe
Or Pope Clemete V crusading against the Knights Templer. But in all honesty, that one was more political than religious even though the charges were mainly heresy.
Agree entirely....
I have long believed, being the equal opportunity atheist that
I am, that religions, all of them, are the greatest evil our species has ever afflicted upon itself. Past and current events do nothing to weaken that belief.
They turn otherwise sensible people into crusaders and other sorts of homocidal lunatics.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 09:05:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Here in WA we have a right wing Evangelical group putting on hundreds of negative TV ads against a State Supreme Court Judge to promote 'their' candidate. It's quite alarming IMO.
I have to admit, living in WA, I haven't seen these. I will try and keep a better lookout for them. This is deffently a alarming trend, with the recent court rulling on marage here in WA. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 10:57:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
This one, probably not. The radical Islamists.. definitly.
Idiots? That's close-minded bias. If it is Christian, it must be bad?
Nah, not necessarly. But tell me: what is the difference between a fundelmentalist, Islmaic, terroist idiot and his Christian counterpart? Apart from dogma, that is.
Historicly, Christians have been just as foul as any other group when it comes to terror, and Christian terrorists are still with us today.
Totaly agree. But there is a big difirence between the Cleric, Preist, or Rabbi that is out in peace and the scoundrels out trying to kill.
Within the radicalized aspects of the religions, it is not so difirent. Whether it be Catholic vs. Protestant in Ireland or Shitie vs. Sunni in Iraq, or for history buffs.... The Crusaders sacking Constantinople.
Peeace
Joe
They turn otherwise sensible people into crusaders and other sorts of homocidal lunatics.
That is a human conditon / nature, not the fault of the religion, politicl philosiphy, or nationalistic intent. The practice has to be seperated from the practitioners.
Peace
Joe |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 11:13:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I have long believed, being the equal opportunity atheist that
I am, that religions, all of them, are the greatest evil our species has ever afflicted upon itself. Past and current events do nothing to weaken that belief.
They turn otherwise sensible people into crusaders and other sorts of homicidal lunatics.
I'm not sure I agree with this.
Whack-jobs appear in all guises.
I think of homicide and weapons as an analogy:
Just owning a gun doesn't make you a murderer, and just because you don't own a gun does not mean you cannot kill. It's the owning of the gun that facilitate the act of murder.
If you have a gun it's much easier to kill someone, than having to beat the guy to death with your bare hands. With your hands you have to have made up your mind and need great resolve to follow through, but a gun it's just pulling the trigger and it's done.
Likewise, religion is a great tool for the unscrupulous to influence people to do evil stuff that would have required afterthought and follow-through to commit otherwise. The conflict in Northern Ireland didn't start with Catholics vs Protestants. It started with the British invasion and confiscation of Irish land. The Irish land was given to British settlers in order to secure the land and make it part of England. Therein lies the core of the North Ireland conflict. Catholic and Protestant is merely used as a rallying cry and identity-badge to keep the factions separate while they still pray to the same God. But for the religiously devoted, it's easier to go out to destroy your enemy if you have your minister or priest giving you your blessing that you'll not be held accountable for the murders you commit.
It's easier to let the priest interpret God's wishes (where the priest also can add his own wishes) than to think for yourself, and organised religion facilitate this act-without-thinking that is so inherently dangerous.
That's why I oppose organised religion, but remains undecided about personal (non-organised) belief in a god. Critical thinking is pretty much excluded from the first practise, but should not be a problem in the latter. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 09/18/2006 12:08:28 |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 11:33:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
On a related matter: quote:
Film Shows Youths Training to Fight for Jesus
New Documentary Features Controversial Bible Camp, Evangelical Movement
By DAN HARRIS
Sept. 17, 2006 - An in-your-face documentary out this weekend is raising eyebrows, raising hackles and raising questions about evangelizing to young people.
Speaking in tongues, weeping for salvation, praying for an end to abortion and worshipping a picture of President Bush -- these are some of the activities at Pastor Becky Fischer's Bible camp in North Dakota, "Kids on Fire," subject of the provocative new documentary, "Jesus Camp."
Worshiping the tinhorn Bush?!! Pu-leease!
Get 'em young and brainwash 'em early. Yeah B'gal. We should be concerned.....
Interesting, and scary. This is what B'gal shoul have put up originally. Christian Identity and a few others were bad enough. More of this kind of stuff is never good. I wonder if it is an offshoot of the Pentacostals......
Peace
Joe |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 13:35:59 [Permalink]
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I surfed around the web a bit typing in "Global Mission" and different sects of Christianity, and it seems that term is used by both moderate and conservative churches. So I thought I'd mention here that not all evangelizing is proselytizing. For instance, the United Methodist Church has its own Global Ministries which refer to their "global mission", and while the first of their 4 goals is: Make Disciples of Jesus Christ, the way that is defined is this (with my emphasis in bold): quote:
We will witness by word and deed among those who haven't heard or heeded the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We will initiate, facilitate, and support the creation and development of communities of faith that seek, welcome and gather persons into the body of Christ and challenge them to Christian discipleship. Where direct proclamation is not permitted, a caring presence becomes the means of Christian witness.
The other four goals are strengthening local religious communities that have already formed, alleviate human suffering, and seek justice, freedom, and peace. http://new.gbgm-umc.org/about/globalministries/goals/
I have one friend who is an adherent to the United Methodist Church and who did missionary work in Argentina for one year (I have mentioned her before on this forum.) She lived with a Catholic family and did not try or desire to convert them to her sect. (She never tried overtly to convert me either for that matter.) And she worked hard for a year living in near poverty to alleviate the suffering and bring education to poor orphans. The "spiritual" aspect of such work is what an atheist or agnostic might call the heart or emotional drive behind such unusually selfless and desperately needed good works.
I see every reason to praise, and no reason to condemn, those Christians who devote their life or some portion of their life to helping others, so long as they only try to convert by example and through welcomed discussion/debate. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/18/2006 13:38:33 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 13:42:17 [Permalink]
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OI, I would oppose almost all outside campaign money for local issues. (I'll leave the door open for some exception I cannot think of at the moment.) Most often it is big money trying to influence something they gain financially from, opposing something the local people stand to lose be it an environmental issue or an economic one.
But the issue with the Global Mission is its roots in Evangelizing, which is essentially a very aggressive form of seeking to convert people to their cause. As for the judges, I started a thread on this in the past, 100s of Christian 'think tanks' have sprung up. There have been a number of well funded, well organized religious organizations beginning in the 80s funneling money into actions which have the goal of legislating their personal religious beliefs on the rest of us. These folks are making a concerted effort to use abstinence only approaches to HIV prevention despite overwhelming evidence such programs are a waste of money and even harm some efforts to decrease HIV by preventing condom distribution. These groups have tried to rewrite history claiming our laws are based on the Ten Commandments which they are not. Our laws are based on English Common Law. These groups have tried to force schools to teach the Bible's version of creation.
And then there was that Armageddon-religious extremists&nuclear weapons thread you have seen.
It isn't just a matter of each side wants what it wants. It's an assault on the separation of church and state. It's persuasion by indoctrination, not just some simple preaching on the street corner. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 09/18/2006 13:55:49 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2006 : 15:39:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
On a related matter: quote:
Film Shows Youths Training to Fight for Jesus
New Documentary Features Controversial Bible Camp, Evangelical Movement
By DAN HARRIS
Sept. 17, 2006 - An in-your-face documentary out this weekend is raising eyebrows, raising hackles and raising questions about evangelizing to young people.
Speaking in tongues, weeping for salvation, praying for an end to abortion and worshipping a picture of President Bush -- these are some of the activities at Pastor Becky Fischer's Bible camp in North Dakota, "Kids on Fire," subject of the provocative new documentary, "Jesus Camp."
Worshiping the tinhorn Bush?!! Pu-leease!
Get 'em young and brainwash 'em early. Yeah B'gal. We should be concerned.....
Here's a news clip showing the children worshipping a photo of President Bush and performing passion plays while wearing camouflage war paint.
One young girl says "It's like we're training to be warriors, but in a more fun way." The camp's director says her goal is to see these children lay down their lives for god.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/18/2006 15:40:18 |
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