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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
 Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:28:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Also it was mentioned that early cultures believed the earth was flat. This might be true, but that was based solely on observation. A God can not be seen and yet almost every culture has independently come to the conclusion that the divine exists. If you believe in feeling knowledge or intuitive knowledge than the fact that almost all cultures have come to the belief in the divine (independently, and with no observation) than this is evidence for the truth of God's existence.
Of all these Gods that man/woman through time has believed in, "How many do you believe in?" |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:31:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
To Mr. Pleco, the Bible verse 1 Corinthians chapter 15 verse 47 is on Carl Jung's tombstone. "The first Adam, made of earth, came from the earth; the second Adam came from heaven." Remember this is the man who invented the words introversion and extroversion.
Can you give a reference to that? And that in and of itself is not evidence that he was a christian. It could mean that he found some parts of chrisitanity good (as I do). I only ask, not that I don't think it is true, but just that I like to have other references to assertions of fact besides heresay. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:33:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Also it was mentioned that early cultures believed the earth was flat. This might be true, but that was based solely on observation. A God can not be seen and yet almost every culture has independently come to the conclusion that the divine exists. If you believe in feeling knowledge or intuitive knowledge than the fact that almost all cultures have come to the belief in the divine (independently, and with no observation) than this is evidence for the truth of God's existence.
A god cannot be seen? You see the "effects of god": those events that couldn't be explained.
That is not evidence for a god's existence. It is evidence that humans used simular methods to account for the unexplainable, because all humans are related due to their evolutionary background.
Could it be possible that those cultures independently felt a "real presence" of the spirit of God and it had nothing to do with explaining anything. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:41:35 [Permalink]
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GK Paul wrote: almost every culture in the history of the world has independently come to the conclusion that a God or gods exists.
I have a slightly different response to this than some of the other skeptics here.
First, just because we refer to the household deity of a Hindu and the all-powerful, all-knowing Creator of Christianity both as "gods" does not mean that they are conceptually the same thing. You may think GeeMack is too rude to respond to, but he has quite a powerful point when he writes:
Your god is only one of thousands (actually millions) which humans have invented throughout our existence to fill in the spaces between what was observed and understood, and those things which were mysteries to them. Gods having been invented by nearly all cultures is evidence to support the notion that there have been mysteries and unknowns in nearly all cultures, a not so surprising notion. That is quite the opposite of your claim that a seemingly universal belief in multitudes of various gods is any sort of evidence for your god's existence.
Also, not all cultures have gods. Most of the religions of people who live like the first humans engage in ancestor worship. They believe the souls of their ancestors live on in some way. Also, skeptics and atheists have always been around, and there are whole major world religions which have not had any gods. If this whole god thing isn't a universal, how does your argument hold up? You know what else is almost a universal of the past among humanity? Racism. People in the past and even today have always held some intuitive or emotional sense that people who looked different from their kin-group were not as human. Many languages word for "people" actually translates to excluding all humans outside their race or culture. Racism is ending (hopefully) in modern times because of racial intermixing, greater transportation and trade, and greater education about how alike we all really are. In the same way, gods in the past explained mysteries. But as science has filled in those blanks, those old gods go away. The Judeo-Christian god persists largely because it fills the gap for the ultimate mystery - the origin of the universe. Like Siberia said, I choose reality, and reality says that the origin of the universe is mystery, period. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 10/09/2006 09:46:09 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:46:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Could it be possible that those cultures independently felt a "real presence" of the spirit of God and it had nothing to do with explaining anything.
Yes, but I think you will have an extremely hard time proving that. I could say that the cultures were also visited by aliens, but I can't prove it. Or perhaps the scene from 2001: A Space Odyssey is accurate. At least with that one we would have to find the Monolith, so there would be some evidence. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 10/09/2006 09:47:53 |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:46:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
To Mr. Pleco, the Bible verse 1 Corinthians chapter 15 verse 47 is on Carl Jung's tombstone. "The first Adam, made of earth, came from the earth; the second Adam came from heaven." Remember this is the man who invented the words introversion and extroversion.
Can you give a reference to that? And that in and of itself is not evidence that he was a christian. It could mean that he found some parts of chrisitanity good (as I do). I only ask, not that I don't think it is true, but just that I like to have other references to assertions of fact besides heresay.
The verse is on his tombstone. You may interpret it the way you wish. I interpret it to mean he believed in the second Adam (Christ). And I interpret it to mean he was a Christian. If I get the time I'll try to get more info. Just punch in Jung and the Verse on google. You'll get your answer about the tombstone. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:53:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
The verse is on his tombstone. You may interpret it the way you wish. I interpret it to mean he believed in the second Adam (Christ). And I interpret it to mean he was a Christian. If I get the time I'll try to get more info. Just punch in Jung and the Verse on google. You'll get your answer about the tombstone.
The point being that I shouldn't have to do this, but...
Link:
quote:
Appearing on the side borders of his tombstone is this passage:
"The first man is of the earth and is earthly, the second man is of heaven and is heavenly." - 1st Corinthians 15:47
Appearing on the top and bottom borders of his tombstone is this passage:
"Called or not called, the god will be there."
Note: His tombstone actually has these passages in Latin (Primus homo de terra terrenus, Secundus homo de caelo caelestis ; Vocatus atque non vocatus deus aderit), these are the English translations.
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:55:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
I believe the reason for this is that there is also a "feeling knowledge and according to Mr. Carl Jung this is just as important and relevant as thinking knowledge. Mr. Jung also mentions inuitive knowledge... Most of the people in these forums concentrate only on thinking knowledge. And I believe that a person will never be able to understand Christianity if they are just fixated in the thinking knowledge mode.
Christianity deals with all modes of knowledge; Thinking (Laws and Commandments), Feelig (love), Intuitive (faith and hope).
Intuition isn't knowledge. It is a notion that develops usually because the mind is subconsciously picking up on patterns, and intuition may or may not prove to be correct. Think of all the things science has discovered that are "counter-intuitive", yet none-the-less true.
Feeling isn't knowledge about the natural world, it is awareness of one's own motivations and values. Feelings help in making people passionate about something good, but they just as often make someone passionate about something bad. Science, when done properly, always yields more knowledge. Feelings by themselves are a throw of the dice.
The only way to prove intuition or feelings true or false is with science. Bad science, however, is always corrupted by intuition or feeligns, and it is also always proven false by more, purer science on top. Any way about it, when it comes to getting knowledge, science wins. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 09:59:59 [Permalink]
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Apprently not all christians like Jung:
Link
Seems Jung had interesting ideas about Christianity:
quote:
In our modern day, if we look at Christ as a historical figure, he is dead to us. But if we see him as the manifestation of the higher Self, the God-in-Us, then he can still speak to us about love, compassion, sacrifice, rising above it all and all sorts of other magnificent human experiences.
Very "new agey". I can see why conservative chrisitans would not like Jung at all. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 10:00:06 [Permalink]
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| Addendum to my last post: And if you wonder, then, why we don't just use science for all types of getting knowledge, the reason is because science requires that we have a certain amount of information. It's like math - I can't solve the equasion 2 + 3 - n = x because I don't have enough information. If I must attempt to solve the equasion, then I will resort to the secondary methods of intuition and feelings because they might be better than a blind guess. Real life puts us in this situation all the time. But, again, to put intuition and feelings on the same level as science in terms of gaining knowledge about reality is, IMHO, foolhearty. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 10:00:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Also it was mentioned that early cultures believed the earth was flat. This might be true, but that was based solely on observation. A God can not be seen and yet almost every culture has independently come to the conclusion that the divine exists.
So if your point is that the early cultures had every reason to believe the Earth was flat and even now have No reason to believe in God, I agree totally.
Neuroscience has shown that the god delusion is a product of the human brain (and all but a few humans have one of those ) so it is expected to be in all cultures and also expected to be a product of culture. Guess what. It is. So it fits the theory that it is a constuct of the mind. In fact, here is a brief synopsis of how it works.
The human brain is designed to recognize humans as human and not the same as other objects (we also recognize apes as humans in this sense as well). When this part of the brain is over active a person may report that they see personhood in objects or plants (like a tree). Many chemicals can do this (much like the chemicals that many cultures used in order to obtain oneness with the universe or god).
Even without any chemical stimulus, stress can manifest the same symptoms. In any case the primary function of the PFC (Pre Frontal Cortext) is pattern recognition and when it recieves signals from the right temporal lobe (the lobe in which that area of personhood is located). It will try and figure out the pattern. If the sun moves something must move it (adding personhood) you get the sun god. Get it?
Do not let my chemical induction comments confuse you. There does not need to be any over acting of this part to generate that feeling of personhood. It is the normal fuction of the brain. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
| Edited by - Neurosis on 10/09/2006 11:10:18 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 10:02:57 [Permalink]
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Pleco wrote: quote:
Seems Jung had interesting ideas about Christianity:
QUOTE
Very "new agey". I can see why conservative chrisitans would not like Jung at all.
Those ideas actually sound not just "new agey", but very much like some of the most progressive Christianity. I have heard very similar sentiments from Quakers, Unitarians, and in the writings of the Episcopalian Bishop John Shelby Spong. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 10:06:23 [Permalink]
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| To add to Neurosis's post, and to recommend another book, the field of evolutionary psychology has begun to study supernatural beliefs and even at this early stage has discovered some neat stuff. Daniel Dennet covers most of it in his book for the layman titled "Breaking the Spell". |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 10/09/2006 10:06:48 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 10:06:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknoxThose ideas actually sound not just "new agey", but very much like some of the most progressive Christianity. I have heard very similar sentiments from Quakers, Unitarians, and in the writings of the Episcopalian Bishop John Shelby Spong.
A unitarian site about Jung (where I was doing some research):
http://cliftonunitarian.com/toddstalks/jungandchristianity.htm |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 10:13:49 [Permalink]
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Jung sounds like "my kind of christian":
quote:
"The advocates of Christianity squander their energies in the mere preservation of what has come down to them, with no thought of building on to their house and making it roomier."
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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