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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9691 Posts |
 Posted - 11/24/2006 : 17:42:13 [Permalink]
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Ditto...
(I'm ex-Pentecostal) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 04:58:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
I have to disagree. It makes more sense to me for a living intelligent God to have always existed than for "the incredible energy needed to create 10 billion trillion stars (and eventially all life)" to have always existed. That "energy and matter" is a something. It doesn't make sense to me for a non-intelligent "something" to just have always existed.
There are only 2 possibilities. An eternal Intelligence created non-living things or eternal non-living things created intelligence. The former makes much more sense to me.
This is a bit bothersome. Who says, definitively, that the energy was "incredible?" On a cosmic scale, it might not have amounted to all that much and only seems vast from our minuscule perspective.
And why only two possibilities? On that same cosmic scale, we, neither scientists nor theologians, nor laymen who are interested and study the subject, know next to nothing about the formation of the universe. Could be that there's a whole different set of laws of physics at work out there. Could be that Something Else did it.
And who says that a creation, for lack of a better word, event only happened just this once? Could be that we are laughin' and scratchin' around Universe Number Umteenth-Quadrillion.
And therein lies the rub, as The Bard once blithered. As a general rule, we think way too small. This is especially true of religious creationists of all flavors. They must have it all neatly packaged and presented in a form that is easy to grasp. "God done it!" answers all, and any mystery, beyond that of whatever invisible and incomprehensible deity presented, is neatly discounted as not worth consideration. It is one of the more blatant forms of intellectual dishonesty, I think.
I mean, how difficult is it to say: "I don't know!"
There have been human cultures that have worshipped a Sun God. And there have been those (including myself who have experienced the pain of a sunburn). To me, the amount of energy needed to create 10 billion trillion of those suns (stars) would indeed be incredible.(Maybe not to you, but you have the right to your opinion)...
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"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 05:39:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
There have been human cultures that have worshipped a Sun God. And there have been those (including myself who have experienced the pain of a sunburn). To me, the amount of energy needed to create 10 billion trillion of those suns (stars) would indeed be incredible.(Maybe not to you, but you have the right to your opinion)...
Yeah, but the plain fact is that we simply don't know and are unlikely to ever know it all.
The various gods, ranging from Ba'al to Odin to Quetzalcoatl, et al, to the current crop, sprang up as attempts to explain natural phenomena. They persist partly because as more of those phenomena are explained by natural causes, more questions present themselves. Also, to admit that some of these explanations are more reliable than a sort of spiritual attribution would rob the churchs of authority, and we can't have that, now can we?
AiG, ICR, DI, CMI and all of the rest rail against the theory of evolution, a theory so heavily based upon fact that there is argument only in the finer details. Thus, their real foe is science itself because each day, something is discovered and studied with the potential to marginalize spiritual explanations yet further.
What might Pope Alexander VI have thought of a toy gyroscope? How would Martin Luther have reacted to a Bic?
I've always thought that sun worship made the most sense. Without photosynthesis in it's light, we would be as anorexic bacteria.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 12/11/2006 04:17:03 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 06:08:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
How would Martin Luther have reacted to a Bic?
By trying to supplant the interests of this new clique with those of his own. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 08:54:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
There have been human cultures that have worshipped a Sun God. And there have been those (including myself who have experienced the pain of a sunburn). To me, the amount of energy needed to create 10 billion trillion of those suns (stars) would indeed be incredible.(Maybe not to you, but you have the right to your opinion)...
The size, the amount of energy/matter and the age of the universe is almost unimaginable. When I look up at the stars I am always in awe.
I see stars, nebula and galaxies but no matter how hard I look I never see any gods or a need for any...
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 09:17:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
There have been human cultures that have worshipped a Sun God. And there have been those (including myself who have experienced the pain of a sunburn). To me, the amount of energy needed to create 10 billion trillion of those suns (stars) would indeed be incredible.(Maybe not to you, but you have the right to your opinion)...
So your belief in something is supported by your disbelief in something else. That is what we call an argument from incredulity, GK Paul. No substance, a mere distraction. But we already know you don't understand science, so making more noise instead of providing some of that evidence you claimed to have is just another example of your dishonesty. As filthy asked, "How difficult is it to say: I don't know?"
And it still begs the question: How do you square it in that twisted little head of yours how your superstition has some prohibition against lying, yet you use lying as your primary method of trying to support what you believe to be the truth of your superstition? Pretty darned hypocritical, don't you think?
Don't you see the irony, boy? You've got no balls, no honesty, no integrity. If your sky daddy actually did exist, without any doubt it would consider you a sinner, a serious disappointment to its principles. Think about this, GK Paul: You might want to consider being a lot more friendly with this group, because if the rest of us go to Hell for not believing, we're going to see you there! 
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| Edited by - GeeMack on 12/04/2006 11:03:16 |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 12:10:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
I have to disagree. It makes more sense to me for a living intelligent God to have always existed than for "the incredible energy needed to create 10 billion trillion stars (and eventially all life)" to have always existed. That "energy and matter" is a something. It doesn't make sense to me for a non-intelligent "something" to just have always existed.
There are only 2 possibilities. An eternal Intelligence created non-living things or eternal non-living things created intelligence. The former makes much more sense to me.
This is a bit bothersome. Who says, definitively, that the energy was "incredible?" On a cosmic scale, it might not have amounted to all that much and only seems vast from our minuscule perspective.
And why only two possibilities? On that same cosmic scale, we, neither scientists nor theologians, nor laymen who are interested and study the subject, know next to nothing about the formation of the universe. Could be that there's a whole different set of laws of physics at work out there. Could be that Something Else did it.
And who says that a creation, for lack of a better word, event only happened just this once? Could be that we are laughin' and scratchin' around Universe Number Umteenth-Quadrillion.
And therein lies the rub, as The Bard once blithered. As a general rule, we think way too small. This is especially true of religious creationists of all flavors. They must have it all neatly packaged and presented in a form that is easy to grasp. "God done it!" answers all, and any mystery, beyond that of whatever invisible and incomprehensible deity presented, is neatly discounted as not worth consideration. It is one of the more blatant forms of intellectual dishonesty, I think.
I mean, how difficult is it to say: "I don't know!"
There have been human cultures that have worshipped a Sun God. And there have been those (including myself who have experienced the pain of a sunburn). To me, the amount of energy needed to create 10 billion trillion of those suns (stars) would indeed be incredible.(Maybe not to you, but you have the right to your opinion)...
That is not the point GK. No matter now incredible the amount of energy, it is still more incredible for a god to exist that by definition must be more complex and more incredible. I mean you really believe that an all knowing all powerful being is a simple solution? Come on man get serious. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2006 : 03:49:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
quote:
There have been human cultures that have worshipped a Sun God. And there have been those (including myself who have experienced the pain of a sunburn). To me, the amount of energy needed to create 10 billion trillion of those suns (stars) would indeed be incredible.(Maybe not to you, but you have the right to your opinion)...
The size, the amount of energy/matter and the age of the universe is almost unimaginable. When I look up at the stars I am always in awe.
I see stars, nebula and galaxies but no matter how hard I look I never see any gods or a need for any...
And you never will see God (the father). According to mainline Christianity God (the father) is Spirit. Genesis 1 vs.2
Christ said the Kindom of God does not come thru observation, but is within you.
And as Helen Keller said, the most beautiful things in life are not seen. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2006 : 04:05:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
I have to disagree. It makes more sense to me for a living intelligent God to have always existed than for "the incredible energy needed to create 10 billion trillion stars (and eventially all life)" to have always existed. That "energy and matter" is a something. It doesn't make sense to me for a non-intelligent "something" to just have always existed.
There are only 2 possibilities. An eternal Intelligence created non-living things or eternal non-living things created intelligence. The former makes much more sense to me.
This is a bit bothersome. Who says, definitively, that the energy was "incredible?" On a cosmic scale, it might not have amounted to all that much and only seems vast from our minuscule perspective.
And why only two possibilities? On that same cosmic scale, we, neither scientists nor theologians, nor laymen who are interested and study the subject, know next to nothing about the formation of the universe. Could be that there's a whole different set of laws of physics at work out there. Could be that Something Else did it.
And who says that a creation, for lack of a better word, event only happened just this once? Could be that we are laughin' and scratchin' around Universe Number Umteenth-Quadrillion.
And therein lies the rub, as The Bard once blithered. As a general rule, we think way too small. This is especially true of religious creationists of all flavors. They must have it all neatly packaged and presented in a form that is easy to grasp. "God done it!" answers all, and any mystery, beyond that of whatever invisible and incomprehensible deity presented, is neatly discounted as not worth consideration. It is one of the more blatant forms of intellectual dishonesty, I think.
I mean, how difficult is it to say: "I don't know!"
There have been human cultures that have worshipped a Sun God. And there have been those (including myself who have experienced the pain of a sunburn). To me, the amount of energy needed to create 10 billion trillion of those suns (stars) would indeed be incredible.(Maybe not to you, but you have the right to your opinion)...
That is not the point GK. No matter now incredible the amount of energy, it is still more incredible for a god to exist that by definition must be more complex and more incredible. I mean you really believe that an all knowing all powerful being is a simple solution? Come on man get serious.
Your thinking in terms of time when you use the concept of less complex and more complex. You imply that something eternal must start out simple and work its way up to complex. But the concept of simple and complex have no relevance when your dealing with something that had no beginning. An Extremely complex being is just as feasible as an extremely simple thing if neither has a beginning. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 12/08/2006 04:29:14 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2006 : 04:50:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
your thinking in terms of time when you use the concept of less complex and more complex. You imply that something eternal must start out simple and work its way up to complex. But the concept of simple and complex have no relevance when your dealing with something that had no beginning. An Extremely complex being is just a feasible as an extremely simple thing if neither has no beginning.
Which brings us 'round full circle. Again.
Until the mystery of the origin of the universe is settled to scientific satisfaction, we cannot know any of this. And alas, it is highly unlikely that anything will ever be known of the "time" (for lack of a better word) preceding that event. So god or demon, or a natural process are equally good conjectures. Although I lean toward the natural, I can't prove it. Neither can the other options be confirmed.
In short, I don't know; you don't know; Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, Ken Ham, Mel Gibson; they don't know either. Neither did the late Mohammad and the other religious flip-outs throughout history. Comes to that, neither did Jesus.
Thus, we are left with with only the hypothetical, and that, thus far, supports natural process'.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2006 : 05:41:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
And you never will see God (the father). According to mainline Christianity God (the father) is Spirit. Genesis 1 vs.2
Christ said the Kindom of God does not come thru observation, but is within you.
Which leads us to the importance of faith.
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
And as Helen Keller said, the most beautiful things in life are not seen.
In the face of reality I find the following Helen Keller quote applicable.
quote:
Helen Keller "People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant."
Well said, don't you think, GK Paul. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2006 : 23:31:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
your thinking in terms of time when you use the concept of less complex and more complex. You imply that something eternal must start out simple and work its way up to complex. But the concept of simple and complex have no relevance when your dealing with something that had no beginning. An Extremely complex being is just a feasible as an extremely simple thing if neither has no beginning.
Which brings us 'round full circle. Again.
Until the mystery of the origin of the universe is settled to scientific satisfaction, we cannot know any of this. And alas, it is highly unlikely that anything will ever be known of the "time" (for lack of a better word) preceding that event. So god or demon, or a natural process are equally good conjectures. Although I lean toward the natural, I can't prove it. Neither can the other options be confirmed.
In short, I don't know; you don't know; Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, Ken Ham, Mel Gibson; they don't know either. Neither did the late Mohammad and the other religious flip-outs throughout history. Comes to that, neither did Jesus.
Thus, we are left with with only the hypothetical, and that, thus far, supports natural process'.
Well I'm glad you admitted that a god or demon or a natural process are "equally good conjectures" even though you lean to natural processes (for some reason). But to be honest with you, I never did finish my line of thinking in my previous post because I was tired and it was a rather deep subject to go further when tired.
But if God or demon or natural processes are equally acceptable (as you agreed) for causing the universe and life, than it is more logical to believe an eternal "living" being is the originator of the universe because that universe contains life. And surely there is a much greater probability that an eternal "living" intelligent being created additional life than for a "non-living" non-intelligent natural process to produce life.
In other words it is more logical for life to come from life than for life to come from non-life. Therefore the belief in a Living Creator is more logical than the belief in non-living natural processes as the originator of the universe and ultimately life.
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"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 12/10/2006 23:54:35 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 01:28:59 [Permalink]
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God-boy lies again!:quote:
But if God or demon or natural processes are equally acceptable (as you agreed) for causing the universe and life, than it is more logical to believe an eternal "living" being is the originator of the universe because that universe contains life.
[My emphasis]
Filthy "admitted" only that whatever "preceded" the Big Bang is unknowable by science, at least for now. Filthy clearly said he prefers (unknown) natural processes as being the most likely explanation of the cosmos' creation.
He wasn't writing about life. Shame on God-boy for inserting "and life" an thus saying he was. People should not lie about what others say. Or, as God is supposed to have commanded, "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
And that doesn't even touch on the illogic God-boy's peddling under the name, "logic."
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 01:56:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
In other words it is more logical for life to come from life than for life to come from non-life. Therefore the belief in a Living Creator is more logical than the belief in non-living natural processes as the originator of the universe and ultimately life.
Logic and desperate special pleading are two different things.
It is a theistic view, the christian included, that believe that life was magically created from non-living matter.
"Living Creator"? According to what definition of life is this "creator" with a capital "c" living?
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 04:15:48 [Permalink]
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Gk, you really should open this link and study it. It pretty well sums up what is known about the "Big Bang."
What was "before" the BB has, thus far, no suitable explanation. It is, I think, highly unlikely that there will ever be one; certainly not one from any heavily edited and revised text originally composed by Bronze Age, tribal bumpkins who knew nothing about what is among and beyond the eyeball-observable stars due to a lack of telescopes and the technology to make them.
And thus are myths and legends conceived; explanations for what was unexplainable at the time. Sadly, they are as tenacious as a limpet, and indeed, more are drawn from the whole cloth every day.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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