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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/20/2006 : 04:07:32
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Okay. Despite his obvious subservience to the wealthy elite that we saw on another thread, Olbermann puts it to more than one president here.
I agree with every word. The 'shining beacon' part is mostly bullshit, except for the part about the hollow words that created the U.S.A. being a shining beacon.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15321167/
By Keith Olbermann
Anchor, 'Countdown'
Countdown
Updated: 3:00 p.m. ET Oct 19, 2006
We have lived as if in a trance.
We have lived as people in fear.
And now—our rights and our freedoms in peril—we slowly awaken to learn that we have been afraid of the wrong thing.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 08:12:12 [Permalink]
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| I saw this last night. The mans intensity is frightening, but that doesn't make the words any less true. I am sure this act can be abused, but I am not sure if they will. We will see. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 11:53:44 [Permalink]
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We should be frightened, not by the intensity of Olbermann's outrage, but by the intensity of the outrageously unconstitutional and tyrannical Military Commissions Act that the President has signed.
In America's whole history as a nation, only a few times has a President been granted, or has seized, such extraordinary, dictatorial powers. Most of those times, the President who used such abusive powers actually thought they were necessary for the survival of the Nation. I doubt that President Bush has even that excuse. The idea of the suspension of habeas corpus being in the hands of this corrupt two-bit theocratic despot with a one-bit mind is truly terrifying.
So we now have the suspension of habeas corpus just before the November elections. The military may now legally seize anyone it wants to, citizen or not, in the dark of night, with secret evidence, without a civil trial or real defense, and hold them indefinitely in a secret location while torturing them.
If there is indeed a "secret dictatorship," the veil covering the fascistic reality has just become a little more transparent.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 23:07:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
"With his signature, President Bush enacts a law that is both unconstitutional and un-American..."
I guess it won't last long then. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 01:31:17 [Permalink]
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Just long enough to prevent impeaching Bush for breaking the law regarding abuse of habeas corpus and ordering torturing of prisoners including innocent people. I believe a number of people see it that way, anyway.
You certainly don't fit the Progressive Democrat description, Mycroft. You may see yourself as a Democrat but there is a split in the Party. I don't see your posts reflecting the values I hold. There are, however, many Democrats in both camps. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 10/21/2006 01:35:38 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 03:21:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
quote:
"With his signature, President Bush enacts a law that is both unconstitutional and un-American..."
I guess it won't last long then.
No, I doubt it will last, but it will do a lot of damage to people in the meantime. Presidents Madison, Wilson, and Franklin Roosevelt's abuses hurt people. Even Lincoln carried out draconian measures during the Civil War.
Most of my neighbors in the Encanto area of San Diego where I grew up were Japanese-American truck farmers. The families were sent to the detention camps during WWII, on FDR's orders. Despite this, several sons enlisted in the Army and fought for the US in Europe.
The farmers had to sell their lands on short notice, and most lost nearly everything in the process. But my next-door neighbors and a few others were lucky. A neighboring white truck farmer bought all their land for a few dollars an acre, and sold it all back to them at the same price when they were later released from the camps. But a lot of Japanese-Americans had their livelihoods destroyed by the detentions.
Imagine that you were a secret prisoner undergoing water-boarding and psychological torture for months or years on end. Now, ask yourself: Would you be greatly assured by thinking that the laws allowing your abuse might only last a few more years?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 12:24:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Just long enough to prevent impeaching Bush for breaking the law regarding abuse of habeas corpus and ordering torturing of prisoners including innocent people. I believe a number of people see it that way, anyway.
If we were to be realistic, we would admit that impeachment of Bush was never in the works to begin with, so this law is irrelevant in that respect.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
You certainly don't fit the Progressive Democrat description, Mycroft.
Did I claim to be “progressive”? I don't think I did, but I'd be interested in learning what the exact definition of that is.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
You may see yourself as a Democrat but there is a split in the Party. I don't see your posts reflecting the values I hold. There are, however, many Democrats in both camps.
This is an interesting statement. You seem to simultaneously disavow me as a Democrat because I don't share many of your ideas, yet you recognize there are many more Democrats like me; the other side of that “split” you mention.
The United States is a democracy, right? Tell me, do you or don't you need the other side of that “split” to win elections or not?
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 18:03:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
No, I doubt it will last, but it will do a lot of damage to people in the meantime. Presidents Madison, Wilson, and Franklin Roosevelt's abuses hurt people. Even Lincoln carried out draconian measures during the Civil War.
Did democracy survive?
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Most of my neighbors in the Encanto area of San Diego where I grew up were Japanese-American truck farmers. The families were sent to the detention camps during WWII, on FDR's orders. Despite this, several sons enlisted in the Army and fought for the US in Europe.
What happened to them was shameful. Do you fear it happening again?
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
The farmers had to sell their lands on short notice, and most lost nearly everything in the process. But my next-door neighbors and a few others were lucky. A neighboring white truck farmer bought all their land for a few dollars an acre, and sold it all back to them at the same price when they were later released from the camps. But a lot of Japanese-Americans had their livelihoods destroyed by the detentions.
The farmer who did that for these people is a hero, I wish more were like him.
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Imagine that you were a secret prisoner undergoing water-boarding and psychological torture for months or years on end. Now, ask yourself: Would you be greatly assured by thinking that the laws allowing your abuse might only last a few more years?
If I were that prisoner I wouldn't like it one bit. (I may argue with the “years on end” part later)
But then again, I wouldn't like being audited by the IRS, being brought before a Senate Investigative Committee, or being sent to prison for a life sentence either.
I can imagine many unpleasant things, but what is proven by it? The real questions are what purpose is served by granting the IRS the power to audit people, or by granting the Senate power to form investigative committees, or by empowering our judiciary to impose stiff prison sentences on criminals.
We grant these powers to institutions knowing full well they will be unpleasant to those they are used against, but in the belief that a greater societal good is served. The rights of individuals are always balanced against the needs of society, and sometimes societal needs take precedence.
That is where the field of any debate on this topic should be.
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 18:06:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
I believe beskeptigal meant to say that you don't belong to the Progressive Democrat part of the Democratic party. At least that's the only way I can make sense out of her post.
I think you're right.
I'm looking forward to seeing how she answers the question on if she feels the not-so-progressive camp of the Democratic party is needed to win elections. :) |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 18:30:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Did democracy survive?
The oligarchy survived. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 20:03:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
...
If we were to be realistic, we would admit that impeachment of Bush was never in the works to begin with, so this law is irrelevant in that respect.
I don't agree it is unrealistic. It may not be highly probable, especially given both Cheney and Bush would have to go and the third in line might not be the best choice either. It's also likely that keeping Bush in view ups the odds of a Democratic President being elected in 2008.
But I was only commenting on the speculation the Republicans passed the torture bill knowing full well it was likely to be struck down by the Supreme Court later. You said then why worry and I said some people view the law as protecting Bush the rest of his term.
My personal feeling is every minute such an atrocious violation of human rights is the public policy of this country is a minute too long.
quote:
Did I claim to be “progressive”? I don't think I did, but I'd be interested in learning what the exact definition of that is.
No, nor did I say you did. I was merely pointing out that when you state you are "a Democrat" your views do not necessarily represent the unanimous view of Party members.
quote:
This is an interesting statement. You seem to simultaneously disavow me as a Democrat because I don't share many of your ideas, yet you recognize there are many more Democrats like me; the other side of that “split” you mention.
The United States is a democracy, right? Tell me, do you or don't you need the other side of that “split” to win elections or not?
The conflict over ousting Lieberman as the Democratic nominee is an example of what I was referring to. He's still a Democrat, but he doesn't represent the direction the majority in the Party want to go if the Primary election results are representative.
Here are your statements of belief made so far on SFN:
1) "I personally think Bush Jr is the worst president ever."
2) "I also think that as bad as he is, no matter how much I disagree with his policies, he is not a fascist, nor is he leading the USA into Fascism. His administration (not "regime")is not like McCarthyism, and our defining freedoms will survive relatively intact until someone else is voted in come 2008."
3) "I also believe that people with different political views can disagree, discuss those disagreements, and still respect one another."
4) "Net neutrality? Not even. Don't get me wrong, I agree it's important, but important does not equal threat to democracy. Be real, democracy predates the internet by thousands of years."
5) "Soldiers lives. Again, very important, but soldiers lives can be placed at risk under any kind of political system. Soldiers lives being placed at risk is not itself a threat to democracy."
6) "Habeas corpus? Sanction of torture? Habeas corpus isn't being taken away from anyone who had it before, that issue has been way blown up. Sanction of torture? You can't even have a discussion over what torture really is."
7) "In either case, these issues are not threats to democracy, they are issues to be decided by democracy. You think an enemy combatant captured in Afghanistan should have the right of habeas corpus? Okay, write to your congressman. You think waterbording during interrogations is beyond the pale? Then learn your facts and write a well thought out letter to the editor in your local paper."
8) "St |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 10/21/2006 23:42:25 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 20:28:09 [Permalink]
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From Mycroft's reply:
Did democracy survive?
Yes, but not by some kind of automatic process. In large measure, democracy recovered because people recognized the abuses and fought them.
What happened to them was shameful. Do you fear it happening again?
In short, probably not quite like that. What I see today is much worse treatment already happening to a smaller number of people. (Though both how much worse, and to how many people are state secrets.) It is not impossible that after some future terror attack, all Muslims might be rounded up and detained, without regard to loyalty, guilt, or citizenship. History is a fair guide as to what is possible, but less of a guide to what is probable.
The farmer who did that for these people is a hero, I wish more were like him.
I fully agree.
If I were that prisoner I wouldn't like it one bit. (I may argue with the “years on end” part later)
But then again, I wouldn't like being audited by the IRS, being brought before a Senate Investigative Committee, or being sent to prison for a life sentence either.
I can imagine many unpleasant things, but what is proven by it? The real questions are what purpose is served by granting the IRS the power to audit people, or by granting the Senate power to form investigative committees, or by empowering our judiciary to impose stiff prison sentences on criminals.
"Unpleasant things"? Physical and psychological torture, and secret detention in secret camps, based (at best) upon secret evidence, is not on the same order of magnitude as IRS audits, being made to testify to the Senate, or being sentenced in open court to life imprisonment after a conviction by a jury of one's peers, of an act made criminal by one's elected legislature. I think your comparison is wildly absurd on the face of it, and is loaded with grave danger.
Real torture and real false imprisonment are going on right now, and have been for over five years, long before being "authorized" by an unconstitutional Act of Congress
We grant these powers to institutions knowing full well they will be unpleasant to those they are used against, but in the belief that a greater societal good is served. The rights of individuals are always balanced against the needs of society, and sometimes societal needs take precedence.
That is where the field of any debate on this topic should be.
"We grant"? I'm sure I didn't grant any such powers. More importantly, neither did the Constitution. Certainly the Republican Congress has caved into the President by supporting, through the Military Commissions Act of 2006, what he's already been doing in secret outside the law.
But the Constitution trumps Congress. The Constitution, which the President and Congress swore to "uphold and defend, from all enemies, foreign and domestic" has no provisions to suspend habeas corpus in such a fashion. There is no way around this, in my opinion: President Bush and those in Congress who voted for the Military Commissions Act are traitors and oath-breakers.
I didn't happen to see where you explicitly said you were a Democrat, Mycroft. But based upon the discussion, I will assume you are until you say otherwise. For the record, I see the Democratic Party as a "big-tent" coalition. It's hard for any Party to complete with the kind of money the GOP can throw into campaigns, or with its relatively narrower and more focused interests. Only by having a broader (and usually fractious) base can the Democrats hope to compete. I welcome you as a fellow Democrat and member of the grandest, oldest, Party. But that doesn't mean we will always agree, or even that we always should.
What is it you would like to see the Democratic Party doing? Who do you think should head the 2008 ticket?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 23:39:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
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I didn't happen to see where you explicitly said you were a Democrat, Mycroft. ...
See # 10 above. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 00:19:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
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I didn't happen to see where you explicitly said you were a Democrat, Mycroft. ...
See # 10 above.
Yup, but you were posting that just before I posted my reply.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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