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wombatwal
New Member
Australia
20 Posts |
 Posted - 10/25/2006 : 20:33:42
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Heard on the radio today that a Professor of Medicine in China a Professor Jung (I think)is questioning the role of traditional Chinese medicine in China's health system. He says there is no scientific proof for the traditional medicine and in fact some of the traditional stuff is dangerous. He has a website which I have not seen, but it is probably in Chinese.
He is getting a hard time from the Chinese Government who support traditional and conventinal medicine and traditional medicine people.
Will have to find out more about this.
Wombatwal
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 21:20:59 [Permalink]
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Let's hope Jung makes some progress. Since at least the time of Chairman Mao (and the "barefoot doctors" of the Cultural Revolution, when the Red Guard shut down the universities), the Chinese government has promoted traditional medicine as, I think, a cheap stopgap to save money and to make up for too few real physicians, especially in the countryside. In effect, urban elites get modern medicine, and rural poor get herbal remedies.
I'm also worried that legislation could be passed in the West allowing a "choice" between real and fake medicine by health insurers, with lower co-payments for quack woo-woo treatments.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/25/2006 21:21:27 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 21:57:27 [Permalink]
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The Chinese government is very much in face saving mode. It seems it's better to hide a SARS outbreak than admit you have one. I don't get it myself, but it was a big factor in SARS and continues to be with bird flu.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 22:03:58 [Permalink]
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| Would it be cynical of me to suggest that the Chinese government could also be partly addressing their over-population by supporting a non-efficient medical practice? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 23:52:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Would it be cynical of me to suggest that the Chinese government could also be partly addressing their over-population by supporting a non-efficient medical practice?
Yes that is cynical, but relying on TCM means they don't have to spend as much on training conventional doctors and building and maintaining hospitals.
The face saving is a big part of it. They don't like to admit how far they fell behind the west. The face saving will probably become less of an issue for them as their economy catches up to the west.
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"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2006 : 21:49:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Would it be cynical of me to suggest that the Chinese government could also be partly addressing their over-population by supporting a non-efficient medical practice?
I think the cover ups are more directed to maintaining one's international status as a first world country. It wasn't the deaths they were covering up as much as it was covering up their ineffective ability to deal with it. |
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Master Yoda
Skeptic Friend
59 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2006 : 23:26:25 [Permalink]
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Ironically, the Chinese healthcare system is actually suffering from rampant capitalism! In the move towards privatization in the 90's, they followed the Reaganomics doctrine, believe it or not. As a result, they've made hospitals and clinics responsible for more and more of their own funding (i.e. run yourself at a profit!). As the population in the booming larger cities has started to demand a better lifestyle, healthcare and medical facilities are now beginning to improve, accordingly. They have a very long way to go, though, particularly in the rural areas. We still fly people out if they are seriously ill or need anything in the way of surgery beyond stitches or setting a broken limb, but there's a fledgling private insurance sector in China, and the government has self-sponsored coverage for government employees.
The surprising thing is that as many as 25% of the population now have some form of medical coverage. Like I said, a long way to go, but far better than one would think. (Another misocnception is that in a communist state medical care would be free. Essentially, untrue. You get what you pay for. China was never concerned with raising the standards of medical care. Frankly, because the "revolution" never got past the "feeding the population" stage. What little rhetoric you hear from the left always cites the barefoot doctors, but that was a Cultural Revolution phenomenom. The government never got behind massive popular medical/health care. They didn't have the money!)
The story about Dr. Jung is typical of China, Hong Kong, Thailand, Taiwan, et al. The cultural traditions here date back thousands of years. Modern doctors are trying to get the public to differentiate between traditional/herbal treatments for (say) a pulled muscle or stress headaches or the common cold, and treatments for serious diseases. Even in an advanced culture like Hong Kong, my younger staff are constantly pressured by the older generation to go to Doctor Feelgood instead of a clinic. I think that's the attitude that Jung is trying to overcome. If it's hard to do here (remember that the Chinese don't just respect, they revere their elders), imagine how hard to accomplish in rural China. (It's also important to differntiate between herbal medicine and the crap that homeopaths are flogging in the west. A girlfriend insisted I get a "traditional" herbal medicine for a bad cold once. I agreed (what the H - a cold runs it course anyway you only mask the symptoms), and was surprised that the taste brought bake memories. It's like liquid Riccola! And when I checked the label, well, it IS liquid Riccola!
SARS - Beskeptigal is right. You can't mistake Chinese intransigency and face-saving for healthcare policy. If you remember the spyplane controversy and the fact that the US apology was not deemed to be a Class A Number One apology, that's part of the root of the problem. For a Chinese, to apologize means "I was wrong" or "I did wrong". To us that seems slightly disconcerting sometimes, even maybe a bit worse, but to a Chinese, it's huge loss of face.
Bird Flu? Same as the above. They apparently haven't learned. The thought that they could have rampant H5N1 in poultry in eleven provinces but only 5 (last time I heard) known cases in humans is just absurd. Epidimologists and biologists in Hong Kong and Japan, who deal with the mainland all the time have cited numbers more like 300+ deaths. (Totally anecdotal and hearsay - I realize this.)
BTW, though, the Chinese "coverup" in 2002/2003 was about 85 days! The fact that a whistle-blower (who to the best of my knowledge has not been put in jail or in front of a firing squad) would come forward so quickly speaks legions as to how far the information revolution has impacted the closed society that was China.
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Master Yoda
Skeptic Friend
59 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2006 : 23:38:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Let's hope Jung makes some progress. Since at least the time of Chairman Mao (and the "barefoot doctors" of the Cultural Revolution, when the Red Guard shut down the universities), the Chinese government has promoted traditional medicine as, I think, a cheap stopgap to save money and to make up for too few real physicians, especially in the countryside. In effect, urban elites get modern medicine, and rural poor get herbal remedies.
Agreed - see post above. But not that they promote it so much as they just haven't fought it. But even in Hong Kong the only way to cut down on the traditional treatments has been to limit the number of visits the insurance companies will allow. It's just so ingrained in the psyche, and like I said, if it's rampant in Hong Kong, you can only imagine how prevalent it must be in China.
quote:
I'm also worried that legislation could be passed in the West allowing a "choice" between real and fake medicine by health insurers, with lower co-payments for quack woo-woo treatments.
Opposite here - so far. The insurers in Hong Kong will allow them only two visits a year to "traditional doctors". (And those traditional doctors do have a certification board of their own.) But if they want to go to a legitimate clinic, hospital, or medical doctor, the insurance will reimburse them as many visits as they want.
Cultural Sidebar/Derail:
If you go to a doctor/clinic in the west for a cold or flu, you either get the shot or you get the pills, right? Here, they get the shot AND they get the pills, and the pills won't be one prescription; it'll be about four different pills. And... if you ask, no one has bothered to ask the doctor what the pills contain or what symptom they're treating. It's just cultural - they trust the doctor like they trust their elders, and whatever they are told by an authority figure, they believe.
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