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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 10/20/2006 : 21:37:22
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I was disgusted. Here's an Air America left wing talk show host usually spouting the latest anti-Bush and company scoop. But give the woman a science topic and she spreads bad science to the detriment of even more kids whose parents believe this junk.
Not a clue that the person calling in had zero expertise and spouted false claim after false claim. After all, it agreed with Rhode's previous false convictions on the subject. And Rhodes went on about how much she researched the matter. Idiots!
I had a thought, and it was reinforced by the Colbert Report's guest Nobel Laureate, Dr Agre, who appeared on behalf of the Scientists and Engineers of America, the latest science coalition to speak out against political attacks on science. He said scientists were invisible. It was exactly what I had been thinking after hearing the Rhode's show. What do people like Rhodes have to believe in order to ignore the real science in the case of vaccine fears? Either all the dedicated scientists and health care providers are in on the conspiracy with the government and the pharmaceutical industry; we are all stupid dupes of the government and the pharmaceutical industry (of course Rhodes is not but her physician is?); or, we don't exist.
This is my latest area to explore in communicating science. Joining the SEA was good timing.
SEA
http://www.sefora.org/
Dr Agre to speak on the 23rd at Johns Hopkins
http://www.sefora.org/calendar_display.php?id=311
Dr Agre on Colbert video, also has Dawkins video link from the show if you missed that one.
Randi Rhodes show from 10/19/06 despite no anti-vax topic summary.
http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/live/node/4406
The subject came up in response to a caller. Rhodes went on long enough for me to turn it off in disgust. I see it isn't in the prepared subject material so that is heartening. But then there is the message board....
http://forums.therandirhodesshow.com/index.php?showtopic=99449
And here's what I posted. I think it came off well, don't you?
Posted on Rhode's forum on vaccine myths.
Apparently those of us in the health care field and medical sciences are either
1) In on the conspiracy with the government and the big pharmaceutical companies,
2) Too stupid to recognize we are being duped by the bad science propaganda of the government and the big pharmaceutical companies,
OR
3) We don't exist.
For the record, research has overwhelmingly ruled out any link between autism and childhood vaccinations.
To prevent future risk from accumulations of mercury in vaccine doses, Thimerisol has been removed from most childhood vaccines more than 5 years ago now.
The rate of autism did not decline in conjunction with the removal of Thimerisol from childhood vaccines as further evidence there was no relationship beyond coincidence.
Autism, in the meantime, thanks to some very clever work by researchers who used children's first birthday videos which there were many, is now diagnosed much earlier in children. In fact, it is now diagnosed before the 15-18 month vaccinations which were originally thought to coincide with the onset of autism.
What was recognized in those first birthday videos were behaviors that indicated a diagnosis of autism was likely. Prior to the research, autism was diagnosed when kids became more social. It is those atypical social interactions that indicate a problem exists and the behaviors were more obvious when kids reached toddlerhood. But in looking at the birthday videos, more subtle behaviors were noted. Since the evidence was video, the kids were already older. Behaviors were rated then the children with and without autism were revealed. The subtle behaviors were clear indications autism was present in these kids by their first birthday.
The only reason the connection was suspected in the first place was the typical age of autism diagnosis just happened to be near the time those vaccine doses were given. However, like anything which looks like there might be a connection, when you see it, you then use the scientific process to TEST YOUR HYPOTHESIS.
Vaccines have been thoroughly looked at and found not to be the cause of autism. Despite the unsupported claims which continue to circulate, autism was found to be no more nor less frequent in vaccinated and unvaccinated children in multiple studies not sponsored by vaccine companies and not tainted by politicians. The research is pointing more and more toward either a genetic or fetal development cause of autism.
As much as I despise and suspect this anti-science Bush administration and as much as I have always suspected corporations of sleazy behavior like asking the CDC to withhold information aspirin was the potential cause of Reyes Syndrome until there was more proof, in the case of vaccines, the anti-vax crowd are the anti-science crowd in this case.
And by the way, the CDC went ahead with the aspirin warning despite all the political pressure aspirin manufacturers could muster, which actually was considerable. Fortunately for us, the CDC preferred to err on the side of protecting children until the evidence was in, rather than protecting corporate profits which was the side the legislators and corporations preferred to err on.
See the section, Science vs Politics, if you are short on time. The essay is worth reading if you aren't.
A few more things:
Not all research dollars come from drug companies or governments, and, in the Internet era, research from scientists in countries all over the world is easily shared.
GUESS WHAT? Scientists and health care providers use the Internet to research the medicine they are responsible for providing. Health care providers understand the difference between an association by coincidence and an association that has cause and effect. We use evidence based medicine. And believe it or not, the vast majority of health care providers using evidence based medicine are not any less skeptical of pharmaceutical company generated research than the rest of you.
The Advisory Committee for Immunization Practices not only is one of the few remaining independent bodies in the ever 'meddling in science' Bush government, the CDC has resisted industry pressure to stall warnings on products such as cigarettes and aspirin for children, and even more important, the ACIP publishes in detail the decision making process, rationale, and the hundreds of citations used to come to the decisions they arrived at. In other words the recommendations are transparent. If there was undue government or industry pressure, health care scientists would quickly bring that to everyone's attention.
Most scientists in government organizations such as in the CDC and NASA have been appalled and outspoken at attempts by corporations and politicians to influence the scientific process and outcomes for some political reason. We pride ourselves in promoting skepticism and in using the scientific process where you look at the data and follow it to the conclusion, you don't look for data that supports the conclusion you want.
The recommendation to vaccinate anyone, especially children, is based on the risk of not vaccinating vs the risk of vaccinating. Having a child, including an infant, get a dose of flu vaccine with the minute amount of Thimerisol mercury preservative is unquestionably by far the safer choice than risking the potential serious outcome of influenza disease. If there is a mercury free dose available, fine, use it. But if the cost is too high or there is only the preserved multidose vial, it is safe to give a child that vaccine with Thimerisol.
One final comment, once the research ruled out the connection between autism and vaccines, with or without Thimerisol, the continued effort to pursue research in a cause that has been ruled out by adequate research means one is not moving on to find the real cause of the increase in autism in this country. And that is the second shame in spreading the unsupportable claim that vaccines are more harmful than the diseases they protect children against.
The following is to address the three choices I noted at the beginning of this post.
The author of this post, me, has been a health care provider for more than 25 years including being the sole provider in an infectious disease practice the last 16 of those 25. I am committed to promoting evidence based medicine. And I certainly know how to cut through big pharm produced research to get to the real evidence.
I am also an avid and very outspoken skeptic. You can find other posts by me under skeptigirl, skeptigal, beskeptical, and beskeptigal on many science promoting forums and blog comments. I distrust corporations and politicians most of the time. I am an anti-war activist and hate this corrupt incompetent Bush administration along with many of the Republicans and the anti-science promoting Evangelicals.
Besides political activism and pro-science activism, I have added working to become more visible along with many others who recognize the important pro-science voice we have and need to use.
So, it isn't #1. I'm not in on the conspiracy. It isn't #2, no way am I stupid or a dupe. That leaves #3, except I certainly exist so apparently, I'm invisible.
There are scientists out there. They recognized global warming and wouldn't let the politicians cover it up. They have continued to keep Creationism and it's wedge version, Intelligent Design, out of most public school science classes.
We are still working on the 'bad medicine' problem. Sadly, it's the one area liberals haven't quite figured out how to separate the science from the conspiracies. Just look for that evidence based medicine label and be careful who you get your misconceptions from.
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Edited by - beskeptigal on 10/20/2006 21:39:03
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 21:58:49 [Permalink]
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B., I feel your pain. Don't your just hate it when someone on "our side" spouts utter, dangerous, anti-scientific nonsense? I sure do.
When the Right spouts their anti-science, I'm almost to the point where I find it humorous1y quaint and charmingly ignorant. When the Left does so, I shudder in embarrassed revulsion. (Much of the 9/11 conspiracy crap has an inherently leftist slant, too.)
After seeing the nonsense from the religious Right, I expect a higher standard from people on my side of the political spectrum. But do I get it? Not often enough. The general level of scientific understanding in the USA is so low, and the (understandable) level of paranoia on the Left is so high. A real understanding of scientific issues can be near nil on both sides of the political spectrum.
That's all one reason I like Al Gore, since he seems capable of understanding non-trivial scientific concepts.
[Edited: spelling]
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/21/2006 04:10:32 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 01:04:00 [Permalink]
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There seems to be a crowd of liberals that believe any government/corporate conspiracy regardless of the science. The 911 CTers think the NOVA program on "Why the Towers Fell" was government propaganda. They probably believe there is Global Warming because the government is denying it, not because there is sound science there. If the government were backing the science there would likely be a group of CTers developing a theory GWarming was a fake threat to get [fill in the blank].
The unembedded scientists are invisible. |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 01:18:56 [Permalink]
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I think the Left has always had a strong anti-empiricist streak and a disproportionate number of people with arts and "soft" science educations. A lot of people on the left don't like Darwin either since "surivival of the fittest" sounds too much like Lasiez Faire capitilism.
Once someone starts subscribing to an ideology, critical thinking usually goes out the window.
The media in general are also reponsible for the lack of coverage of the all the negative studies on mercury and autism. Ben Goldacres most recent Bad Science column was on this topic. Negative studies don't sell papers or get ratings the way scare stories do.
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"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
| Edited by - Ghost_Skeptic on 10/21/2006 01:22:14 |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 01:28:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
There seems to be a crowd of liberals that believe any government/corporate conspiracy regardless of the science. The 911 CTers think the NOVA program on "Why the Towers Fell" was government propaganda. They probably believe there is Global Warming because the government is denying it, not because there is sound science there. If the government were backing the science there would likely be a group of CTers developing a theory GWarming was a fake threat to get [fill in the blank].
I have heard it suggested that the efect of CFCs on the ozone layer is a conspiracy by the chemical industry to sell new refrigrants. The 100 mpg carburator that was suppressed by big oil CT is still with us.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
The unembedded scientists are invisible.
They have to start making noise and keep at it because they will be largely ignored. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 02:43:48 [Permalink]
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Speaking of blaming autism on various things, there's a new "scientific" study that wants to blame TV. (I could maybe see blaming radio -- after all, those airways have probably been polluted with heavy metals ever since Orson Welles' Mercury Theater.)
If you feel this is too OT, B., I'll remove it. Here's the Abstract from the paper:
quote:
DOES TELEVISION CAUSE AUTISM?
ABSTRACT
Autism is currently estimated to affect approximately one in every 166 children, yet the cause or causes of the condition are not well understood. One of the current theories concerning the condition is that among a set of children vulnerable to developing the condition because of their underlying genetics, the condition manifests itself when such a child is exposed to a (currently unknown) environmental trigger. In this paper we empirically investigate the hypothesis that early childhood television viewing serves as such a trigger. Using the Bureau of Labor Statistics' American Time Use Survey, we first establish that the amount of television a young child watches is positively related to the amount of precipitation in the child's community. This suggests that, if television is a trigger for autism, then autism should be more prevalent in communities that receive substantial precipitation. We then look at county-level autism data for three states – California, Oregon, and Washington – characterized by high precipitation variability. Employing a variety of tests, we show that in each of the three states (and across all three states when pooled) there is substantial evidence that county autism rates are indeed positively related to county-wide levels of precipitation. In our final set of tests we use California and Pennsylvania data on children born between 1972 and 1989 to show, again consistent with the television as trigger hypothesis, that county autism rates are also positively related to the percentage of households that subscribe to cable television. Our precipitation tests indicate that just under forty percent of autism diagnoses in the three states studied is the result of television watching due to precipitation, while our cable tests indicate that approximately seventeen percent of the growth in autism in California and Pennsylvania during the 1970s and 1980s is due to the growth of cable television. These findings are consistent with early childhood television viewing being an important trigger for autism. We also discuss further tests that can be conducted to explore the hypothesis more directly.
. . .
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/21/2006 02:51:02 |
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McQ
Skeptic Friend
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 06:38:12 [Permalink]
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Beskeptigal, that was a great post you put in at Rhode's forum. I was disappointed at the immediate response from "OKthatsIT". Not surprised, but disappointed. I'm always bummed out when someone takes the time to put in a well-thought-out argument and is waived off without reason. But that's what's expected in certain forums I guess. Regardless, good post!
I was really shocked to see the part about the Pharma industry and the AMA being the ones holding back stem cell research. Yikes! How much more wrong could that be?
(edited to add the last paragraph)
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Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Gillette |
| Edited by - McQ on 10/21/2006 06:40:14 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 07:11:13 [Permalink]
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It doesn't surprise me in the least that attacks on childhood inoculations comes from the left. Almost the whole new age movement is made up of liberals. Liberals who are no more educated in critical thinking than their conservative counterparts. They are aggressively green, which is not always a bad thing, but on subjects like genetic engineering they loose it. On the subject of medicine, unfortunately, they don't know when to stop. In their minds, everything the government is even tangentially involved in is a conspiracy to deprive us of good health. The new age is obsessed with health and because of their distrust of any official approval of pharmaceuticals; they have embraced the warnings and the claims of the makers of “natural” alternative meds as the way to go.
From denying HIV infections relationship to AIDS, denying that oncologists and the whole medical community actually want to save their patients lives (because it would put them out of a job) to putting their stamp of approval on anecdotal based evidence for meds that have absolutely no efficacy at all beyond a possible placebo effect. The list is long for the cures they favor (food supplements and such) including homeopathy and many of the claims coming from chiropractors and snake oil peddlers in general.
What it comes down to for us is that we are fighting a war for evidence-based science on all fronts. And while the motivation for pushing bad science may differ depending on what direction (left, right or religious) that it's coming from, we have our hands full…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 12:10:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by McQ
Beskeptigal, that was a great post you put in at Rhode's forum. I was disappointed at the immediate response from "OKthatsIT". Not surprised, but disappointed. I'm always bummed out when someone takes the time to put in a well-thought-out argument and is waived off without reason. But that's what's expected in certain forums I guess. Regardless, good post!
I was really shocked to see the part about the Pharma industry and the AMA being the ones holding back stem cell research. Yikes! How much more wrong could that be?
(edited to add the last paragraph)
Thank you for your compliment!
I haven't had time yet to see the forum responses. There are always the uneducated claims that 'they' have read the science too. It happens with the Bible literalists as well. Read a few articles with invalid arguments and your knowledge is suddenly equivalent to someone's with years of study and experience.
I remember an old activist's premise, "forget the old", you can't change them, concentrate on changing the young." Young and old doesn't have to mean age in this case. But the idea there are some you just need to write off is relevant.
It would seem fighting nonsense with fact has an effect but not one that solves the problem entirely. I'm hoping the voice of scientists gets louder in the near future. Besides supporting the specific scientific issues, it would mean supporting science itself as well. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 23:41:55 [Permalink]
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| Don't forget Bill Maher's nonsense about how we'd all be healthier if it weren't for all the unnamed "toxins" that we allegedly ingest and breathe. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 00:42:52 [Permalink]
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| That was another sad day for science, I do recall. |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 02:13:21 [Permalink]
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Beskeptigal - It looks like they think they scared you off with their "brilliant refutations" - the nonsense about stem cell research being repressed by the AMA etc. boggles my mind.
quote:
1 Post is all ya get....now that's not catapulting the propaganda....where'd she go?
If your goal was to increase the number of people getting their children vaccinated you should have told them that the anti-vaccination propangda is really a secret plot by big pharma, the AMA, the Illuminati etc. in order to make business for themselves when the black helicopters spray viruses on an unsuspecting population.
This would be far more effective on that crowd than your use of logic, reason and evidence. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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McQ
Skeptic Friend
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 08:52:55 [Permalink]
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| I just read both of the follow up posts to Beskeptigal and all I can say, while I sit here dumbfounded, is "Holy shit! These people are stupid!" |
Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Gillette |
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mike
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2006 : 08:16:29 [Permalink]
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I cant stand Randi Rhodes and believe she uses the issue for political purposes and
not to help kids. Thimerosal(mercury) is still in vaccines. You are simply wrong and
ignorant if you believe that. It is public information. Please educate yourselves. This is not a partisan issue either. Look at republicans such as Dan Burton or MD congressman
Dave Weldon. The mercury preservative in these vaccines has never been tested by the FDA and was give to these babies at 100X EPA exposure levels. Be as skeptical as you want, but please do your homework. The people at the CDC who were in charge of vaccine safety are no longer in charge after lying to Dan Burton's(R) committee when he was the Chairman of the Committee on Gov't Reform.
I am not anti vaccine, but, can you explain why a newborn needs a Hep B shot? Maybe you
should read conservative commentator Michelle Malkin's article on this. I want to make the point that this is not a partisan issue, but very much a problem. Still skeptical?
Check out VAERS(Vaccine adverse event reporting system). This public CDC/FDA database
will show you what is happening if you have the courage to look it up, think independently and believe the truth. btw. Bill Mahar is an ass and has no credibility to speak on this serious issue. |
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The Bad Astronomer
Skeptic Friend
137 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2006 : 23:00:57 [Permalink]
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Beskeptigal, that was well put. Maybe Randi will read it, and learn something.
I listened to her show, but gave up. I am not what anyone would call conservative, but I call her the Limbaugh of the Left: she starts off somewhat reasonably on many topics, then lurches off into some weird realm where logic need not apply. It got so frustrating that I simply couldn't listen any more. Now that I see she's bought into this ridiculous anti-vax crap, I feel better about my decision... but worse for her listeners. |
*****
The Bad Astronomer
http://www.badastronomy.com
"With tremendous respect to [the] BA, the problem isn't getting scientists to talk, the problem can be getting them to shut up." |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2006 : 23:50:56 [Permalink]
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How ironic. I've been too busy giving flu shots to follow up.
Guess I'll have to check it out tonight even if it means not enough sleep for tomorrow's round of flu shots.
Rhodes has never been my favorite. The only reason I even had the show on the night the vaccine nonsense was discussed was I had the car radio on driving home. Even if the content were better, I don't enjoy the one person rant style of show. |
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