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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 11/15/2006 : 20:09:04 [Permalink]
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To quote from what I wrote in the original post: quote:
These are people who probably would not be comfortable in one another's presence. Yet interestingly, these folks, despite the wildly varying axes they have to grind, all feel that skeptics are close-minded religionists who are bent upon refuting only their own cherished beliefs.
All seem to think the burden is upon skeptics to disprove their strange beliefs. None seem capable of understanding the idea that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Instead, they demand skeptics disprove their bizarre beliefs.
All of them are use almost every form of logical fallacy in the book. They seem especially fond of ad hominems and strawmen.
None can seem to grasp that by plunging into a den of skeptics, they will of course have their extraordinary claims vigorously challenged. None has armed himself with the tools of good logical debate. Every one of them has used lies and personal insults to make his point.
[Emphasis added.]
Clearly, though I'd taken pains not to name those who I felt demonstrated the best recent case studies for the "three types of woo-woo," Ergo seems to believe he saw himself there, and takes offense.
Yet what single point point above has Ergo neglected to illustrate, in this very thread?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 11/15/2006 20:10:24 |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2006 : 20:39:01 [Permalink]
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| I just added a category to your list, moonie... |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2006 : 21:22:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Because the government, if involved, would likely make it look like it was NOT a cd. Like when a guy boosts your wallet out of your pocket, he makes it look like he just stumbles into you.
Holy crap now this is compelling! Since there is no evidence that there was any controlled demolition this in itself is evidence that the goverment was involved in a controlled demolition.
Can't argue with that logic, at least not sober.
Dave and halfmooner, I hope you guys are alright. I know that ergo adding vowels to the end of your names is really taking its toll....
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2006 : 21:40:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
quote:
Because the government, if involved, would likely make it look like it was NOT a cd. Like when a guy boosts your wallet out of your pocket, he makes it look like he just stumbles into you.
Holy crap now this is compelling! Since there is no evidence that there was any controlled demolition this in itself is evidence that the goverment was involved in a controlled demolition.
But there is evidence of a controlled demolition, furie. Some of it was literally all over Manhattan. Some of it was found on top of the Deutche Bank building in April.
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No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 01:31:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
quote:
Because the government, if involved, would likely make it look like it was NOT a cd. Like when a guy boosts your wallet out of your pocket, he makes it look like he just stumbles into you.
Holy crap now this is compelling! Since there is no evidence that there was any controlled demolition this in itself is evidence that the goverment was involved in a controlled demolition.
Can't argue with that logic, at least not sober.
Dave and halfmooner, I hope you guys are alright. I know that ergo adding vowels to the end of your names is really taking its toll....
If I had only been so wise when I first signed up here, I'd have a nick like Ergo's own, with a vowel already defensively situated at the end, ready to fend off the humiliating "-ie" suffix. Then I'd have a diminutive-resistant handle, just like he does. Would that I were born Italian. Sigh. Now it's too late. I don't know how much longer I will be able to bear this clever abuse.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 02:27:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally claimed by ergo123
But there is evidence of a controlled demolition, furie. Some of it was literally all over Manhattan. Some of it was found on top of the Deutche Bank building in April.
Present this evidence and provide references.
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 06:53:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
quote:
Because the government, if involved, would likely make it look like it was NOT a cd. Like when a guy boosts your wallet out of your pocket, he makes it look like he just stumbles into you.
Holy crap now this is compelling! Since there is no evidence that there was any controlled demolition this in itself is evidence that the goverment was involved in a controlled demolition.
But there is evidence of a controlled demolition, furie. Some of it was literally all over Manhattan. Some of it was found on top of the Deutche Bank building in April.
So, lack of evidence of CD would point to the government actually using CD to bring down the WTC, but since there is evidence of a CD (you say) this clearly shows that CD was not used.
Does that sum up you position?
PS: Referring to me as furie has clearly done its job. I now feel child like and I inexplicably am looking at you as an authority figure. It is obvious to everyone by now that you really are a Psychologist / Statistician / Dickhead.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 08:38:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
PS: Referring to me as furie has clearly done its job. I now feel child like and I inexplicably am looking at you as an authority figure. It is obvious to everyone by now that you really are a Psychologist / Statistician / Dickhead.
Furshur is in a fury!!!  He unleashes the demons of sarcasm in his rage to strike at the saint who is name Egie!!!111oneone
Furious Furshur
Furie's fury...
[more deranged use of smilies and perhaps even of a poo-smiley]
Okay, I'll sit back in my little white corner with the friendly ladies in white outfits now. They are very nice to me and bring me little round candies every now and then. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 10:19:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
quote:
quote:
quote:
Because the government, if involved, would likely make it look like it was NOT a cd. Like when a guy boosts your wallet out of your pocket, he makes it look like he just stumbles into you.
Holy crap now this is compelling! Since there is no evidence that there was any controlled demolition this in itself is evidence that the goverment was involved in a controlled demolition.
But there is evidence of a controlled demolition, furie. Some of it was literally all over Manhattan. Some of it was found on top of the Deutche Bank building in April.
So, lack of evidence of CD would point to the government actually using CD to bring down the WTC, but since there is evidence of a CD (you say) this clearly shows that CD was not used.
Does that sum up you position?
No, not exactly... 
Here is my position: The official stories of how and why the towers fell are false. While some of the observations these stories cite did occur, the final conclusions the various stories reach are invalid. I have presented the evidence for this on other threads.
I believe that the buildings would not have completely collapsed if the only damage they incurred was that of the impact of the planes and/or the resulting fires.
I believe the building completely collapsed because demolition devices were set off in the buildings.
I believe those who set off the demolition devices planned to make it look like the buildings fell due to the planes crashing into them and/or fire.
There is evidence that demolition devices were used to bring down the towers: e.g., tons of concrete dust all over Manhattan; human bone fragments on the roof of the Deutsche Bank; debris ejected from a cloud of dust over 100 feet away from the South Tower's collapse footprint (where all debris should have been falling at free-fall speed relative to the ground and at zero relative to other falling debris)--to list but 3.
I believe members of our government were involved in the demolition as there is evidence of attempts to cover up what actually happened--the most obvious attemps include removing evidence from the crime scene before official investigators could examine it and the delay of official investigations of approximately 8 months (while evidence was being removed from the crime scene). |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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Antigone
New Member
44 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 12:23:56 [Permalink]
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Of all the claims you have made the one that makes me laugh the most is the one that the media (stations like CNN who often are accused of, to put it bluntly, hating Bush) helped the government feed us their story as 9/11 was happening.
This means that stations like CNN (the station I saw that day, as it is the one on at my school and thats were I was that day) had to know before hand that panes were going to be highjacked and then used as a weapon against us. And it would mean they knew the buildings would fall. And it would mean they watched all those firemen go into the WTC and knew many of them would not come out.
They would have to know the government's story before hand to actually tell it as it was happening, and THAT is even more ridiculous than saying the government had people (Americans) put explosives all over the WTC in order to kill more people on American soil. No matter how f**ked up and worthless I think the Bush admin. and other 'leaders' of ours are I cannot believe they would put explosives around the WTC to bring them down. I think they lacked common sense, enough concern, and competence to follow up on Intell Reports to stop 9/11, but I do not think they helped actually carrying out the attacks.
And how they could put the explosives all over the WTC without anyone noticing is beyond me. Were there other people involved other than the Government and the media? Were the security guards and building managers involved too?? People who worked at the WTC? The people hired to put the explosives in? Or do you think military did, lmao? Did they hire Joe Schmoe's Demolition Company?
And the person who had to press that button ... tell me the type of person that could see all those firemen, police men and women, old people, young people, pregnant women, young men like my cousin and young women like my friend who barely started their adult lives, etc. who could see all those people and still press that button and kill them all for our government?? Not for any cause or passion, simply for our government.
As for the concrete dust, bone fragments, etc, found all over NYC ... now who's not using their scientific mind? I hate to type anything insulting during discussions like this, but are you REALLY that stupid?
My girlfriend took an Engineering class after 9/11 and they worked on problems concerning the weight, structure, and materials used in the WTC and the fire. The fire caused the buildings to fall (in my opinion based on what scientists have said). And, before you say it, NO, not just my gf and her class worked on this ... people qualified have. As I assume you know.
We could go on and on with this, but I know, judging from our discussion so far, that we will just go around in circles.
I have used my intellect, scientific mind, and my own senses and common sense in this matter. End of story.
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Mortui non dolent |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 13:10:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
I believe that the buildings would not have completely collapsed if the only damage they incurred was that of the impact of the planes and/or the resulting fires.
I believe you are wrong.
quote:
I believe the building completely collapsed because demolition devices were set off in the buildings.
I believe you are wrong.
quote:
I believe those who set off the demolition devices planned to make it look like the buildings fell due to the planes crashing into them and/or fire.
I believe you are insane.
quote:
There is evidence that demolition devices were used to bring down the towers: e.g., tons of concrete dust all over Manhattan;
2 buildings fell that were 110 stories tall, of course there was concrete dust all over manhattan. This is not evidence of CD. quote:
human bone fragments on the roof of the Deutsche Bank;
Same as previous. This is not evidence of CD. quote:
debris ejected from a cloud of dust over 100 feet away from the South Tower's collapse footprint
Again this is a result of a massive structure falling. quote:
(where all debris should have been falling at free-fall speed relative to the ground and at zero relative to other falling debris)
What in science name is this suppose to mean?
You got nothin.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 14:11:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Antigone
Of all the claims you have made the one that makes me laugh the most is the one that the media (stations like CNN who often are accused of, to put it bluntly, hating Bush) helped the government feed us their story as 9/11 was happening.
This means that stations like CNN (the station I saw that day, as it is the one on at my school and thats were I was that day) had to know before hand that panes were going to be highjacked and then used as a weapon against us. And it would mean they knew the buildings would fall. And it would mean they watched all those firemen go into the WTC and knew many of them would not come out.
No, you moron. They unwittingly helped. Those news outlets essentially take whatever they are handed and put it on the air--they have 24 hours a day to fill with "news." Ever notice how willing they are to speculate on any given topic? It's because they are a 24 hour news station. They have air-time to fill. If they don't have any news, they speculate on what might be news.
So they helped by taking what they were handed and putting it on the air.
quote:
They would have to know the government's story before hand to actually tell it as it was happening...
Why do you say that? If the government knew what they wanted their story to be, and orchestrated events to look like what they wanted their story to be, the reporters would only have to report what they were seeing and that would match up with what the government wanted people to believe. Magicians manage to fool our eyes when we know they are tricking us. Imaging how easy it might be when you aren't suspecting someone is trying to conceal the truth.
quote:
...and THAT is even more ridiculous than saying the government had people (Americans) put explosives all over the WTC in order to kill more people on American soil. No matter how f**ked up and worthless I think the Bush admin. and other 'leaders' of ours are I cannot believe they would put explosives around the WTC to bring them down.
And that's another thing the would be banking on, if they indeed were behind it. The government has planned and/or committed "false flag" operations in the past and there is no reason to suspect additional false flag operations will occur in the future.
quote:
And how they could put the explosives all over the WTC without anyone noticing is beyond me.
Of course, being "beyond you" doesn't mean it would be beyond them...
quote:
Were the security guards and building managers involved too??
Well, the security company in charge of the WTC was run for a while by Bush's brother, and then by another Bush relative...
quote:
And the person who had to press that button ... tell me the type of person that could see all those firemen, police men and women, old people, young people, pregnant women, young men like my cousin and young women like my friend who barely started their adult lives, etc. who could see all those people and still press that button and kill them all for our government?? Not for any cause or passion, simply for our government.
Why do you think the person who pressed the button did it only for our government and not for a cause or passion? Personally, I think it would have to be a person who had a cause and a passion that was in line with the cause and passion that drives much of the behavior of this administration--the forceful spread of democracy. All you need to do is find someone who believes strongly enough in the "end" and is of the mind that the end justifies the means, and you are good to go.
quote:
We could go on and on with this, but I know, judging from our discussion so far, that we will just go around in circles.
Why, because you refuse to listen to anyone else's side of the issue?
quote:
I have used my intellect, scientific mind, and my own senses and common sense in this matter. End of story.
Oh, I guess so!
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No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 14:49:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
quote:
I believe that the buildings would not have completely collapsed if the only damage they incurred was that of the impact of the planes and/or the resulting fires.
I believe you are wrong.
The government agrees with me, furie. They claim in the NIST Report that were it not for the unevidenced dislodging of fire-proofing from the steel, the buildings would not have collapsed. In other words, they started with a conclusion of gravity-only collapse and determined the only way that could happen was if something they had no evidence for happened...
quote:
quote:
I believe the building completely collapsed because demolition devices were set off in the buildings.
I believe you are wrong.
What do you believe cause the buildings to completely collapse?
quote:
quote:
I believe those who set off the demolition devices planned to make it look like the buildings fell due to the planes crashing into them and/or fire.
I believe you are insane.
You think it is insane to try to hide criminal activity? Criminals do it all the time, furie!
quote:
quote:
There is evidence that demolition devices were used to bring down the towers: e.g., tons of concrete dust all over Manhattan;
2 buildings fell that were 110 stories tall, of course there was concrete dust all over manhattan. This is not evidence of CD.
Well, it in not consistent with a gravity-only collapse: especially the pulverized concrete from the first few impacted floors where the speed of the falling mass would be relatively slow.
quote:
quote:
human bone fragments on the roof of the Deutsche Bank;
Same as previous. This is not evidence of CD.
Well, it in not consistent with a gravity-only collapse: 1/2 pieces of human skull being blown across the street and then some... how do you explain that, furie?
quote:
quote:
debris ejected from a cloud of dust over 100 feet away from the South Tower's collapse footprint
Again this is a result of a massive structure falling.
But what force is acting on that piece of debris once it is already almost 200 feet away from the collapsing building and in free-fall? The force of gravity is downward. What send that piece of debris arcing sideways?
quote:
quote:
(where all debris should have been falling at free-fall speed relative to the ground and at zero relative to other falling debris)
What in science name is this suppose to mean?
Ah. I see. You don't understand the dynamics of bodies in free-fall. Think of it this way. How many accidents would occur on a freeway if all the cars were traveling in the same direction at the same speed? None--accidents are not caused by speed--they are caused by difference is the speed of the cars relative to each other. The relative speed of a car traveling at 60MPH to another car going 60MPH is zero.
Turn now to the piece of debris I mentioned (you can see it here at time mark 20:41 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003 ). All the debris outside the footprint of the building is free-falling due to gravity. So its all traveling at essentially the same speed. One exception to this is debris like the dust particles. The dust has a high surface-area to mass ratio and travels downward at a rate slower than more dense objects like the steel and glass. That is why you see these more massive objects falling to the ground faster than the dust. So it would be normar to see that suspect piece of debris to emerge from the bottom of the dust cloud that was spreading out past the footprint of the South Tower.
But it didn't fall out of the bottom--it flew out the side. If gravity was the only force acting on that piece of debris it would have been traveling at essentially the same speed as the rest of the non-dust debris, and it would not have had the occasion to act upon or be acted upon by any of the other free-falling debris, because it would be traveling at the same speed as all that other debris.
For that piece of debris to be ejected out of the side of that dust cloud, there must have been a force acting upon it. Given everything at that point was in free-fall, gravity does not account for that force. Unless, of course, you think that piece of debris hit a piece of dust and bounced out of the cloud--but that contradicts the law of conservation of momentum...
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No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 15:20:29 [Permalink]
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Nonsense, based upon massive ignorance and substitution of imaginary mechanisms for valid, commonsense physics. No taking into account the transfer of aircraft momentum, the blast effects of the combustion, the huge volume of air suddenly forced out by the collapse itself. By simply blithely stating that everything (except dust) would fall the same, it is clear Ogre didn't see all those sheets of paper which filled the sky. And never heard of terminal velocity, which would have explained why essentially every object fell differently than every other object.
But, of course those sheets of paper may have just been a magician's trick. Can't give any credit to things we see, can we?
Fucking idiot. I'll respond no more.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 11/16/2006 15:22:30 |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 15:36:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Nonsense, based upon massive ignorance and substitution of imaginary mechanisms for valid, commonsense physics. No taking into account the transfer of aircraft momentum, the blast effects of the combustion, the huge volume of air suddenly forced out by the collapse itself. By simply blithely stating that everything (except dust) would fall the same, it is clear Ogre didn't see all those sheets of paper which filled the sky. And never heard of terminal velocity, which would have explained why essentially every object fell differently than every other object.
But, of course those sheets of paper may have just been a magician's trick. Can't give any credit to things we see, can we?
Fucking idiot. I'll respond no more.
I'm thankful you will respond no more, moonie. I'm thankful because you claim the evidence I present is nonsense without ever substantiating your claim. I am thankful because you frequently misquote me--like claiming I said "that everything (except dust) would fall the same" when I said it would fall at essentially the same speed.
At least you were right about the paper--I had forgotten about the paper. Of course, the paper is immaterial to the point I was making about the debris being ejected from a cloud of dust... But that is another tactic you pull--focusing on aspects or details that are immaterial to the issue at hand. Like the issue of terminal velocity. I suggest you read the links you post before posting them... |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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