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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 01/01/2007 : 03:15:14
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We're now at 3,000 dead, and that's only the Americans that President Bush has gotten killed thus far in Iraq.
President George W. Bush
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/01/2007 03:16:39
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 10:07:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
We're now at 3,000 dead, and that's only the Americans that President Bush has gotten killed thus far in Iraq.
Yeah - and YOU thought we'd never get there...what a pessimist.
Let's see - 3K dead in 5 years, that's 600/year. ALMOST as bad as the death toll from shootings in the heartland of liberalism - Washington DC (where guns are outlawed). I think we definitely should pull out of DC. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 10:11:54 [Permalink]
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You're correct, that's not nearly enough dead soldiers. I think we should start using our troops as suicide bombers, or as human shields. That'll show 'em. Because the death of a soldier is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
Guns are not outlawed in Virginia, where they are imported from. But I suspect you already knew that fact and just chose to ignore it. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 01/01/2007 10:13:37 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 14:14:40 [Permalink]
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Murders in D.C. peaked in 1991 at 482. I don't know where you got your "5 years" figure, since the 3,000 number is counted from March, 2003, giving an average of 782.6 dead soldiers per year in Iraq, 62% higher than the worst year in D.C. In 2005, only 195 people were murdered, about 1/4th of dead-soldier rate. The average rate for 2002-2005 (last four years of data) in D.C. was nearly 227 murders.
Yeah - 782 is ALMOST as bad as 227.  Can't even get the numbers straight, can you?
Of course, I think we should pull out of D.C., anyway. Hand it all back to Maryland and let the Feds rent the land they use. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 14:39:18 [Permalink]
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Oh, yeah... I forgot: if we include just 25% of the minimalist estimates of Iraqi dead, the rate soars to 4043.5 dead per year.
Which just goes to show that even a liberal mayor can't hope to compete for a body count when Democrats and Republicans get together in the spirit of unity and give war powers to a madman.
(Not that Sharon Pratt Kelly was the most liberal mayor D.C. has ever had, it was just in the first year of her term that the peak murder rate occured. Of course, the crack-smoker managed to get 472, so the competition was close.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 21:03:54 [Permalink]
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YO! A Sight for Thor Eyes!
You said....
"Let's see - 3K dead in 5 years, that's 600/year. ALMOST as bad as the death toll from shootings in the heartland of liberalism - Washington DC."
Orwellingly Yurz asks: Please lead me down your dipsy-doodle path of logic that takes you to a conclusion that liberalism = shooting deaths.
OY!! |
"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
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Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
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--me
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--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 22:35:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
You're correct, that's not nearly enough dead soldiers.
Wow, what a shockingly dishonest and emotive debate tactic. Do you consider yourself to be a skeptic?
The issue of numbers was brought up, so let's talk about it.
The truth is that while each death is a tragedy, three-thousand deaths for 150,000 troops in action for more than three years is a very small number. I think it would be difficult to find another military campaign with a death rate that low. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 23:46:23 [Permalink]
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Okay, the Iraq war, so far, has seen 3,000 deaths out of 150,000 troops (your numbers), an 0.02 rate of deaths-per-soldier (DPS). Most of the below data comes from Wikipedia, ordered from bloodiest to cleanest:
Beruit: 265 deaths out of 1,800 soldiers, an 0.15 DPS.
Vietnam: 58,151 deaths out of 553,000 soldiers, an 0.11 DPS.
American Revolutionary War: 25,000 deaths out of 250,000 fighters (about), an 0.10 DPS.
Korean War: 33,686 deaths out of 480,000 soldiers, an 0.07 DPS.
War of 1812: 20,000 deaths out of 501,312 fighters (about), an 0.04 DPS.
World War I: 115,660 deaths out of 4,355,000 soldiers, an 0.027 DPS.
World War II: 407,300 deaths out of 16 million soldiers, an 0.025 DPS.
Grenada: 19 deaths out of 7,000 soliders, an 0.0027 DPS.
Panama Invasion: 24 deaths out of 27,684 soldiers, an 0.00087 DPS.
Gulf War I: 299 deaths out of 575,000 soldiers, an 0.00052 DPS.
So both World Wars were fairly comparable to the current Iraq war, and it isn't difficult at all to find conflicts less bloody for the U.S. (one just needs to look at very modern operations).
But THoR decided to compare the current war to the murder rate in our Nation's Capital. How do the numbers look when compared to deaths among the citizens?
1991: 482 murders out of 598,000 citizens, an 0.00081 MPC.
1990: 472 murders out of 606,900 citizens, an 0.00078 MPC.
1971: 275 murders out of 741,000 citizens, an 0.00037 MPC.
1969: 287 murders out of 798,000 citizens, an 0.00036 MPC.
2005: 195 murders out of 550,521 citizens, an 0.00035 MPC.
Murder in the U.S Capital is only more bloody than Gulf War I, only while Gulf War I was occuring. The current war can't compare to those low numbers. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 23:47:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Wow, what a shockingly dishonest and emotive debate tactic. Do you consider yourself to be a skeptic?
If you are so easily shocked, perhaps you should take a deep breath, count to three, and then think about why I answered the previous post like that.
If you are still shocked, then ask yourself if the post I answered was looking for a debate, and ask yourself where is your outrage for that post's "style"?
And if you are still shocked after that, then watch a wave of concern fail to cross my face. I am a skeptic, and I also know what "sarcasm" and "dark sense of humor" is. If you don't like it, so be it. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 00:26:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
You're correct, that's not nearly enough dead soldiers.
Wow, what a shockingly dishonest and emotive debate tactic. Do you consider yourself to be a skeptic?
The issue of numbers was brought up, so let's talk about it.
The truth is that while each death is a tragedy, three-thousand deaths for 150,000 troops in action for more than three years is a very small number. I think it would be difficult to find another military campaign with a death rate that low.
No, actually, it's a pretty huge number, considering that the invasion and defeat of Ba'athist forces was completed in 2003, and President Bush infamously celebrated a "Mission Accomplished" on May 1, 2003. Had Bush ever warned that a situation like the present worsening five-way* civil war clusterfuck would exist three years and eight months later, I don't suppose he would have ever received the war powers that Congress granted him in this case.
Only careful work by historians will reveal what parts of Bush's fiasco were due to stupidity, which parts were due to deliberate deception, and which parts were driven by ideological boneheadedness. (Actually, none of these exclude the others.)
* The "five-way" struggle is between 1) The "Coalition of the Willing" (though not of the "Ready" or the "Able" -- primarily the US and the UK), 2) The Kurds, 3) The Sunnis, 4) The Shi'ias , 5) Al Qaeda and similar opportunist jihadist terrorists. There is some overlap between some of the groups, as with Al Qaeda and some of the Sunnis.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 11:56:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
You're correct, that's not nearly enough dead soldiers. I think we should start using our troops as suicide bombers, or as human shields. That'll show 'em. Because the death of a soldier is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
Guns are not outlawed in Virginia, where they are imported from. But I suspect you already knew that fact and just chose to ignore it.
I think that would instill comradery, what do you think? |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 12:02:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
You're correct, that's not nearly enough dead soldiers.
Wow, what a shockingly dishonest and emotive debate tactic. Do you consider yourself to be a skeptic?
The issue of numbers was brought up, so let's talk about it.
The truth is that while each death is a tragedy, three-thousand deaths for 150,000 troops in action for more than three years is a very small number. I think it would be difficult to find another military campaign with a death rate that low.
You are wrong. Also, we are not fighting a war in Iraq. There are no battle lines, it is all guerilla warfare. Virtually no mission objectives. They just ride up and down patrol.
The point is that even one person dead per year is a terrible loss when it accomplishes nothing. Lemme ask you, what is our current objective in Iraq and what will it accomplish when completed? |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
| Edited by - Neurosis on 01/02/2007 12:06:07 |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 08:06:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis:
You are wrong. Also, we are not fighting a war in Iraq. There are no battle lines, it is all guerilla warfare. Virtually no mission objectives. They just ride up and down patrol.
The point is that even one person dead per year is a terrible loss when it accomplishes nothing. Lemme ask you, what is our current objective in Iraq and what will it accomplish when completed?
Bolding mine.
There is a very clear objective in Iraq: our government wants to make Iraq "a country that can govern itself, sustain itself and defend itself." Just as police officers will patrol areas where they feel crime is more likely, having troops patrol regions in Iraq is in direct support of the stated objective. |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 14:39:55 [Permalink]
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I meant mission objectives for the troops themselves. How do we make Iraq stable? What should we be doing? How can we gauge our progress? If we succeed, how will it benefit us?
The last one is probably having a stable ally that does not provide a harbor for our enemies. Nevertheless, how can we assure that this will be maintained when the majority of the population agrees with our enemies? |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 15:07:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis:
I meant mission objectives for the troops themselves. How do we make Iraq stable? What should we be doing? How can we gauge our progress? If we succeed, how will it benefit us?
The last one is probably having a stable ally that does not provide a harbor for our enemies. Nevertheless, how can we assure that this will be maintained when the majority of the population agrees with our enemies?
Are you talking about this kind of mission statement? Or did you need something a little more specific? quote:
From the article:
The overall mission for the 1-40th Cav. while deployed in this area is to provide a secure environment for the Iraqi people in south Baghdad. “Operation Arctic Sunrise helped to accomplish the mission by removing a sizable cache of improvised explosive device making material, detaining 11 individuals believed to be involved in insurgent activities and improved the living conditions for the Iraqi people in the area,” said Goodwin.
Along with the humanitarian aid packages, troops escorted local national contractors throughout the town to repair damaged roads and installed a transformer to increase the towns energy output. With days of indirect fire from mortars, improvised explosive devices as well as small arms fire from enemy snipers, the combine coalition forces pushed through the adversity and accomplished the mission.
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 15:22:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
We're now at 3,000 dead, and that's only the Americans that President Bush has gotten killed thus far in Iraq.
Well, that means that he is ahead of 9/11... |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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