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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
 Posted - 01/03/2007 : 15:35:25 [Permalink]
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response to Boron
No, I've read those before. The troops are sent on patrol as police officers in their precints. The Iraq police force is supposed to take over this job after training. However, unlike in the city where crime is punished by jailing offenders, in Iraq bombings are made as political statements and in retaliation. It is more like a civil war or better to fit the analogy, a gang war. Policing the areas will not stop the violence any more than it stops gangs in the inner city.
I would like to know how they intend to accomplish peace in Iraq and how progress could be judged. I simply mean that, the war in Iraq is not a war, traditionally speaking. In war, one has a goal, the surrender of the opponent, and can judge progress by how much land is in the control of your army (as well as tons of other things like supply lines and etc.).
Who is our opponent in Iraq? How could we recognize them from the other citizens? How can we cut off the supply of insurgents or stop the constant attacks stategically?
Most of the casualties (by a factor of about 10 to 1) are Iraq citizens. An attack occurs daily and has shown no sign of stopping (some signs of increasing). The methods have become more sophisticated and more effective over time.
There is a religious war in Iraq. We are effectively in the middle of it.
Source |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
| Edited by - Neurosis on 01/03/2007 15:37:56 |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 16:03:49 [Permalink]
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Neurosis, for the most part, you are right. It must be frustrating for the troops to be put into a "police" role, something which Marines and Soldiers are not normally trained. Unfortunately, that seems to be the only (though marginally) effective way to achieve the overarching goal of stability in the region.
Do you have a better idea? If so, organize a petition, write your Senators and Representative, let us all know. It's a horrible situation over there, and most of us don't know of a bloodless way to fix it. |
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McQ
Skeptic Friend
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 17:30:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
Neurosis, for the most part, you are right. It must be frustrating for the troops to be put into a "police" role, something which Marines and Soldiers are not normally trained. Unfortunately, that seems to be the only (though marginally) effective way to achieve the overarching goal of stability in the region.
Do you have a better idea? If so, organize a petition, write your Senators and Representative, let us all know. It's a horrible situation over there, and most of us don't know of a bloodless way to fix it.
I'm pretty sure that "Q" could handle this effectively. No, not the Q from James Bond, the other guy....with the IQ of 2005. He could deal.
Seriously, this is a pitiful situation and Neurosis has nailed down some good points. The mission that our troops are doing is not the mission they are prepared for, or should be doing.
We did something similar in Central America in the 1980s. It sucked. It was all missions in reaction to political goals. When you're in that situation, you lose. Every time.
I feel sick that I voted for this man now. I thought he had the moral and ethical fiber to do the job. I realize I was mistaken.
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Elvis didn't do no drugs!
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 18:50:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
Neurosis, for the most part, you are right. It must be frustrating for the troops to be put into a "police" role, something which Marines and Soldiers are not normally trained. Unfortunately, that seems to be the only (though marginally) effective way to achieve the overarching goal of stability in the region.
Do you have a better idea? If so, organize a petition, write your Senators and Representative, let us all know. It's a horrible situation over there, and most of us don't know of a bloodless way to fix it.
Sadly, I don't have a much better way to handle the situation. Which is exactly why I am not vocal on the matter. If I were in the administration, I would probably be working more on exit strategy and minimizing the losses. Of course, I would also be privy to alot of other information and that may change accordingly.
Personally, I don't like the excuse of "Do you know how hard his job is?". Sure, arguably the most difficult in the world, however, that doesn't mean he shouldn't still do a good job. After all, playing in the NBA is hard too, but I certainly would rather have Kobe, Shaq, or Iverson. Can I get a job in the NBA by saying "Do you have any idea how hard basketball is?"
In any case, I think it is a hopeless scenario. Maybe I am wrong. I just don't see how our troops, or any of the other nations troops, can help the situation as it is. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 19:30:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by McQ:
I'm pretty sure that "Q" could handle this effectively. No, not the Q from James Bond, the other guy....with the IQ of 2005. He could deal.
I agree!quote:
Seriously, this is a pitiful situation and Neurosis has nailed down some good points. The mission that our troops are doing is not the mission they are prepared for, or should be doing.
Though it may be a "sick situation" our Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen are stuck in, why do you say they should not be attempting to keep the peace and stabilize the region?quote:
We did something similar in Central America in the 1980s. It sucked. It was all missions in reaction to political goals. When you're in that situation, you lose. Every time.
McQ, every military mission is "in reaction to political goals." That's what the military is for: political goals. When some politician realizes that a job would be better performed with force than with handshakes and treaties, the military moves in. quote:
I feel sick that I voted for this man now. I thought he had the moral and ethical fiber to do the job. I realize I was mistaken.
Interesting. I am very glad you were able to change your mind, especially about politics. It shows you are willing to ... well ... change your own mind. That is a rare and admirable condition.
Just out of curiosity, and you are under no obligation to answer (I usually feel voting is a very private matter, but since you broached the subject), did you vote for him in both his presidential elections? |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 19:33:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
We're now at 3,000 dead, and that's only the Americans that President Bush has gotten killed thus far in Iraq.
Well, that means that he is ahead of 9/11...
Good grief, you're right! And Pearl Harbor, too.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/04/2007 05:11:03 |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2007 : 19:44:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis:
Sadly, I don't have a much better way to handle the situation. Which is exactly why I am not vocal on the matter. If I were in the administration, I would probably be working more on exit strategy and minimizing the losses. Of course, I would also be privy to alot of other information and that may change accordingly.
I believe most Political and Military Leaders are working on exactly that. Politics and military plan for success and for failure. Hope for one, be prepared for the other.quote:
Personally, I don't like the excuse of "Do you know how hard his job is?". Sure, arguably the most difficult in the world, however, that doesn't mean he shouldn't still do a good job. After all, playing in the NBA is hard too, but I certainly would rather have Kobe, Shaq, or Iverson. Can I get a job in the NBA by saying "Do you have any idea how hard basketball is?"
I had no intention of asking if you knew how hard his job is, and apologize if that's how I came across.
I have the annoying habit of holding professionals up to higher standards than amateurs (see my posts in this thread). To follow the basketball analogy, I think it is inexcusable for a professional basketball player to miss a free-throw. I only have about a 70% success rate, but I would expect somebody whose job is to play basketball to be much better than me. So much better, in fact, that a static problem like a free-throw should be pathetically simple.
Anyway, my point is this: I completely agree that the President of the United States and his Military Advisors should be able to come up with a viable strategy. quote:
In any case, I think it is a hopeless scenario. Maybe I am wrong. I just don't see how our troops, or any of the other nations troops, can help the situation as it is.
Unfortunately, neither do I. There are many people in this country thinking of this very problem, though. You'd think somebody would have a great idea and would be able to present it to Congress and the public. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2007 : 00:43:03 [Permalink]
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My personal preference for what we should do in Iraq is to leave. Pull up the tent pegs and ship every single troop home. Immediately. The arguments that this will destabilize the whole region are nothing more than a slippery-slope fallacy.
Iraq was botched from the start. It was planned by incompetents and the sycophantic hangers on of incompetents. Any general who disagreed with them was relieved of duty and forced to retire.
The initial invasion of Iraq should have included 350k-500k ground troops and air support from atleast 2 carrier groups plus the squadrons stationed in Saudi and Kuwait. We should have convinced Turkey to allow us the use of their southern border area for a staging ground for part of the assault.
Bremmer (another incompetent) should never have been allowed to dismantle the remaining Iraqi military, police and government agencies.
We should have put an Iraqi government in place. No 18month session for Iraqi's to come up with a constitution that no one will abide by. Only after all insurgency was eliminated and a more or less stable ecomomy was up and running should we have handed over the governing of Iraq to "the people".
All this and more should have been planned down to small details, with a firm timetable for accomplishing specific goals clearly laid out.
We should have taken Iraqi troops out of their contry for training. Removed the volunteers from the influence of their militia and religious masters. We should have randomly assigned the Iraqi volunteers to military units, made sure that the units were made up from a fairly even mix of the different ethnic groups. Their training should have been designed to instill in them a sense of loyalty to the nation of Iraq instead of their vrious religious and local militia loyalties.
We should have forced all militias to disband and imprisoned those who refused.
I could go on here.
But it is to late to do those things. I am unconvinced that even a half million troops there now would achieve the goal of a stable Iraq.
The best thing to do now is to stop. Just admit the error and get the hell out. Do not fear the slippery slope logic that the incompetents who planned this in the first place are trying to sell now.
The whole situation disgusts me. If you have a problem that can only be solved by military force, you should start out with an overwhelming ammount of force. If you go to war, go for real. If you can't commit to it on that level then it is time to reconsider military force as an option.
There is almost nothing about Iraq that has been handled right.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2007 : 01:10:25 [Permalink]
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I agree with you in every particular, Dude. Well stated!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2007 : 03:35:06 [Permalink]
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Agreein' with Dude. You'd think that the sanguinary lessons of Vietnam, so very well taught, would have been considered before trying to invade another sovereign country on the flimsiest of pretexts.
But then perhaps not. After all, our current alleged leaders, in a magnificent demonstration of determined cowardice, did all they could to shirk their responsibilities to their country, and stay as far away from 'Nam as possible. Hell, you really can't much blame 'em. It wasn't a very pleasant place to be at the time, and no doubt, they "had better things to do."
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2007 : 05:16:40 [Permalink]
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So many veterans learn about war the hard way, and end up wiser for it. Bush kept, as you mention, Filthy, his own rich ass out combat, so learned nothing except that having others die in one's place works. Rummy served as a Navy pilot, but in a time-span (1954 to 1957) between wars.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2007 : 07:06:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
I agree with you in every particular, Dude. Well stated!
I'll second that. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2007 : 07:19:50 [Permalink]
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I do tend to agree, but that solution was not politically tenable. It would have cost a potful of money and a potful of soldier's lives (much more than 3000), and neither one in the short term would have been pulled off. Instead, because the administration was absolutely going to oust Saddam no matter what, they took the route they knew would allow this: lying to the public and using the absolute minimum.
I suspect (with no proof) that the destabilization of the middle east and the a civil war in Islam was/is the actual end goal. And I wonder how much the book of Revelations has to do with it...again this is idle speculation. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 01/04/2007 07:20:38 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2007 : 08:45:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
pleco:
I suspect (with no proof) that the destabilization of the middle east and the a civil war in Islam was/is the actual end goal. And I wonder how much the book of Revelations has to do with it...again this is idle speculation.
The goal was a first step toward a new version of a Pax Americana devised by PNAC. Many of its members are in the Bush administration and are the neocons we speak of.
See: Poject For The New American Century
quote:
Critics allege the controversial organization proposes military and economic space, cyberspace, and global domination by the United States, so as to establish — or maintain — US dominance in world affairs (Pax Americana). Some have argued the US-led invasion of Iraq in March of 2003 was the first step in furthering these plans. They tend to be very fundamentally driven when it comes to their intentions. Their agenda is to create a US led and dominated international order.
PNAC was a major advocate for the United States' 2003 invasion of Iraq. The invasion formed a centerpiece of the group's neoconservative agenda. Complications with the invasion have contributed to PNAC's decline along with the decline of the larger neoconservative foreign policy movement. PNAC now only has one employee and is seen as nearly defunct.[1]
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2007 : 09:31:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
I suspect (with no proof) that the destabilization of the middle east and the a civil war in Islam was/is the actual end goal. And I wonder how much the book of Revelations has to do with it...again this is idle speculation.
We may not have conclusive evidence, but we do have evidence:
http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Sep2005/gupta0905.html |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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