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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 01/13/2007 : 19:38:02 [Permalink]
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Half said:
quote:
Also, it turns out that technically (and technicalities get all the marbles in a case like this) no US raid of a diplomatic property took place at all in Irbil!:
Yeah, I noticed that the AP didn't refer to it as a consulate yesterday or today either. They did report it as a consulate in the original article though.
O.I.: The default position when dealing with a credible reporting agency, like the AP, is to grant them the benefit of trust. If, as it appears to be the case this time, they are wrong, then you correct and move on.
Right now the only people calling it a consulate seem to be the Iranians. I can't find any reference to Iraq having officially recognized this office as a consulate either.
So, as Half said, no invasion of Iran. The original article I referenced was mistaken.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2007 : 20:55:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
The only comparrisson I am trying to make is that of blood-debt. Hitler could have been stopped much sooner, and the loss of life less. Same with governments of Iran and Syria.
I am not a WWII expert. From what I remember reading, from long ago,was it was not so much the sanctions as the stipulations placed on them after WWI. Hitler bought to them a sense of nationalism and pride that they were sorely lacking. I a not sure how much of the reperations they actually paid, but from what I remember, until Hitler, they had a very depressed economy.
Indeed, reperations were never paid. One of the main problems was that before Hitler, due to the sanctions, they could not be paid in the first place. This made the German state unable to recover, leading to increased inflation and unemployment. The humilation of the peace-treaties forced upon Germany didn't help either. Because of this, Hitler could gain power in the first place, because the sanctions stipulated detrimented economic growth and humiliation. Indeed, Hitler brougth them a sense of nationalism and pride. My concern in the US's dealings with countries like Iran is that the current way of dealing with them does nothing but enforce the leadership already present, instead of having a policy that could topple those regimes. In my opinion, if history teaches us anything, it is that a country isolated by economic measures becomes more nationalistic and more adherent to the current leadership in that country.
quote:
Now, once again, in case you missed it, :) .....I do not support acts of war without a formal decleraton of war. I do not like our war powers act, the constitution makes it plain about war. I am of the opinion if countries want to go quietly into the night, that is their right. I feel no need to protect other countries from their own stupidity. There is enough stuidity in ours to worry about.
Peace
Joe
The question that irked me to comment is how much a guideline WWII can be. You commented that 'they' know how to get in and restore order then, but could that have been done in Iraq? I doubt it. Unlike Germany, which had a form of unity for at least half a century at that time, Iraq is more like the Balkan. I ragtag of different populations forced into one country, with no real sense of unity. I don't think anything would have prevented the violence we see there at this point. At least if America would have stayed out of it, Saddam would have died and then, possibly, an internal war much the same as the current one would have started. Only then at least the West wouldn't have gotten the blame for it.
Ah, but I'm ranting far off topic here.
Gee... and you said you didn't know the causes.... :) I think you pretty much nailed it from what Iremmeber (other then Hitler being a psychopath.....)
quote:
You commented that 'they' know how to get in and restore order then
Please point to where I said this.
Peace
Joe
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2007 : 21:01:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Half said:
quote:
Also, it turns out that technically (and technicalities get all the marbles in a case like this) no US raid of a diplomatic property took place at all in Irbil!:
Yeah, I noticed that the AP didn't refer to it as a consulate yesterday or today either. They did report it as a consulate in the original article though.
O.I.: The default position when dealing with a credible reporting agency, like the AP, is to grant them the benefit of trust. If, as it appears to be the case this time, they are wrong, then you correct and move on.
Right now the only people calling it a consulate seem to be the Iranians. I can't find any reference to Iraq having officially recognized this office as a consulate either.
So, as Half said, no invasion of Iran. The original article I referenced was mistaken.
No harm no foul. I have read it was:
a) a consulate.
b) an embassy.
c) it had approval from Iraq
d) it din't have approval from Iraq.
e) they were diplomats.
f) They were Republican Guard.
g) Elvis was spotted near Tikrit right afterwards.....
While I do consider the AP to be more credible then most, I still question thier credibility.
I still want to know what's up wit the Kurds. In this case, did they know they were operating there, and if so, why the hell they'd let 'em.
And I know I have read that the Defence Minister had called them a diplomatic mission. I am sick of watching it closely though, and I am going to wait before reading anymore on it.
Peace
Joe
Peace
Joe
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| Edited by - Original_Intent on 01/13/2007 21:03:47 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2007 : 21:55:52 [Permalink]
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OI wrote:quote:
I still want to know what's up wit the Kurds. In this case, did they know they were operating there, and if so, why the hell they'd let 'em.
Here's a wild guess:
Since the Iranians smuggle weapons to Hezbollah (and doubtless to others) in Lebanon via Syria, they may do so partly through the agency of the Kurds. The Kurdish north of Iraq provides a fairly short, direct route between Iran and Syria. (The Kurds have long been famous smugglers, living on the border of several countries.) So the Kurds may simply be "doing business" like that with the Iranians for profit, or for a share of some of the weapons. That office may have been there to coordinate smuggling and contracts with the Kurds.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/13/2007 22:11:05 |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2007 : 23:05:47 [Permalink]
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:( I truely hope I have not been feeling empathy for the Kurds while they have been helping the people who have been brutaly repressing them. Gees... What next? Are they gonna start a co-ops with the Turks and Syrians...:(
Truely hope you are wrong.....
Peace
Joe |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2007 : 23:58:55 [Permalink]
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Everyone in the region plays the Kurd Game. Over the years, I've seen them working with and against the Iranians and the Iraqis and Syrians. I guess they simply make the best use of their mountainous borderland location. I still like 'em but one needs to be realistic, too.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2007 : 05:13:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
The only comparrisson I am trying to make is that of blood-debt. Hitler could have been stopped much sooner, and the loss of life less. Same with governments of Iran and Syria.
I am not a WWII expert. From what I remember reading, from long ago,was it was not so much the sanctions as the stipulations placed on them after WWI. Hitler bought to them a sense of nationalism and pride that they were sorely lacking. I a not sure how much of the reperations they actually paid, but from what I remember, until Hitler, they had a very depressed economy.
Indeed, reperations were never paid. One of the main problems was that before Hitler, due to the sanctions, they could not be paid in the first place. This made the German state unable to recover, leading to increased inflation and unemployment. The humilation of the peace-treaties forced upon Germany didn't help either. Because of this, Hitler could gain power in the first place, because the sanctions stipulated detrimented economic growth and humiliation. Indeed, Hitler brougth them a sense of nationalism and pride. My concern in the US's dealings with countries like Iran is that the current way of dealing with them does nothing but enforce the leadership already present, instead of having a policy that could topple those regimes. In my opinion, if history teaches us anything, it is that a country isolated by economic measures becomes more nationalistic and more adherent to the current leadership in that country.
quote:
Now, once again, in case you missed it, :) .....I do not support acts of war without a formal decleraton of war. I do not like our war powers act, the constitution makes it plain about war. I am of the opinion if countries want to go quietly into the night, that is their right. I feel no need to protect other countries from their own stupidity. There is enough stuidity in ours to worry about.
Peace
Joe
The question that irked me to comment is how much a guideline WWII can be. You commented that 'they' know how to get in and restore order then, but could that have been done in Iraq? I doubt it. Unlike Germany, which had a form of unity for at least half a century at that time, Iraq is more like the Balkan. I ragtag of different populations forced into one country, with no real sense of unity. I don't think anything would have prevented the violence we see there at this point. At least if America would have stayed out of it, Saddam would have died and then, possibly, an internal war much the same as the current one would have started. Only then at least the West wouldn't have gotten the blame for it.
Ah, but I'm ranting far off topic here.
Gee... and you said you didn't know the causes.... :) I think you pretty much nailed it from what Iremmeber (other then Hitler being a psychopath.....)
Hmmm, guess those history lessons still have stuck more then I thought. 
quote:
quote:
You commented that 'they' know how to get in and restore order then
Please point to where I said this.
Peace
Joe
First page. I probably should have said 'they' knew. Reading back, you said (paraphrased): 'they knew how to fight a war in WWII, they also knew how to rebuild a country afterwards.
One thing I'll give you, they weren't squeemish over losing men in both WWI and WWII, in the way we are now. In WWII, they also weren't squeemish over losing civilians either. I doubt whether that would do any good here, however. As far as I remember, they weren't squeemish over those things in Vietnam either and that still didn't help much. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2007 : 05:21:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Everyone in the region plays the Kurd Game. Over the years, I've seen them working with and against the Iranians and the Iraqis and Syrians. I guess they simply make the best use of their mountainous borderland location. I still like 'em but one needs to be realistic, too.
It always seemed to me they very much have the attitude of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend', combined with a 'nobody will help us anyway'-mentality. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2007 : 14:51:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
:( I truely hope I have not been feeling empathy for the Kurds while they have been helping the people who have been brutaly repressing them. Gees... What next? Are they gonna start a co-ops with the Turks and Syrians...:(
Turks and Kurds has been at eachother's throats ever since Turkey established their current border. Kurds want their own nation in east Turkey, and the Turkish government won't let them and the Kurdish labour-party is practically considered terrorists, and national traitors for wanting to split the country. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2007 : 20:01:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Everyone in the region plays the Kurd Game. Over the years, I've seen them working with and against the Iranians and the Iraqis and Syrians. I guess they simply make the best use of their mountainous borderland location. I still like 'em but one needs to be realistic, too.
It always seemed to me they very much have the attitude of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend', combined with a 'nobody will help us anyway'-mentality.
Bingo! And add in, "Business is business."
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2007 : 20:06:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
:( I truely hope I have not been feeling empathy for the Kurds while they have been helping the people who have been brutaly repressing them. Gees... What next? Are they gonna start a co-ops with the Turks and Syrians...:(
Turks and Kurds has been at eachother's throats ever since Turkey established their current border. Kurds want their own nation in east Turkey, and the Turkish government won't let them and the Kurdish labour-party is practically considered terrorists, and national traitors for wanting to split the country.
Right, and that's an added reason that the Kurds may be wanting to build up their financial and military muscle right now, doing whatever it takes them to accomplish it. They know they may be facing a war with Turkey in the future. Turkey does not like, and probably will not long tolerate, having a (semi-) independent Kurdistan on their border.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/15/2007 19:26:34 |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2007 : 14:35:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
:( I truely hope I have not been feeling empathy for the Kurds while they have been helping the people who have been brutaly repressing them. Gees... What next? Are they gonna start a co-ops with the Turks and Syrians...:(
Turks and Kurds has been at eachother's throats ever since Turkey established their current border. Kurds want their own nation in east Turkey, and the Turkish government won't let them and the Kurdish labour-party is practically considered terrorists, and national traitors for wanting to split the country.
I really do have to remmeber those [sarcasm] tags. As in
[sarcasm]What's next? Are they gonna start a co-ops with the Turks and Syrians....
[/sarcasm]
Halfmooner said:
quote:
Right, and that's an added reason that the Kurds may be wanting to build up their financial and military muscle right now, doing whatever it takes them to accomplish it. They know they may be facing a war with Turkey in th future. Turkey does not like, and probably will not long tolerate, having a (semi-) independent Kurdistan on their border.
Yeah, the Kurds definitly need to cool their asses, especially with blowing shit up in Turkey. Of course, it is PKK (?)The Kurdish Workers Party,that have been doing it. Iraqi Kurds have helped the Turkish Military with this problem.
I must admit, the only part of this I have been paying close attention to is the "Blowing stuff up" part. There is no end to the phone calls from people cruising to or from Istanbul when one goes off.
Peace
Joe
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