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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 01/18/2007 : 12:58:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul:
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia:
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul:
What's the big deal. The Church of Secular Humanism wants all reference to Christmas banned in public arenas. I see no difference in that, and what the Saudis want to do.
No they don't.
If you put up a Merry Christmas banner in your city hall (in December) I have a feelling it won't stay up too long.
GK Paul, I should not need to remind you that evidence is a really good idea.
You have, so far, made the following unsupported assertions:
1. A Merry Christmas banner would not stay long in a city hall (did you realize your comment was made to a Brazilian? Would that change your "feelling" [sic]?)
2. There exists such thing as a "Church of Secular Humanism."
3. Some organization "wants all reference to Christmas banned in public arenas."
4. It is the "Church of Secular Humanism" that "wants all reference to Christmas banned in public arenas."
Please, provide some evidence in support of the above assertions. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2007 : 13:07:50 [Permalink]
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Damn, I missed out on seeing #1, Boron. That's hysterical. Yeah, in a country whereThe following religious holy days are observed as national or regional holidays: Saint Sebastian's Day, Ash Wednesday, Good Friday, Corpus Christi, Saint John's Day, Our Lady of Carmen ("Carmo"), Assumption Day, Our Lady Aparecida, All Souls' Day, Evangelicals Day, Immaculate Conception, and Christmas.
- Brazil - International Religious Freedom Report 2005 they're really going to freak out over the display of a "Merry Christmas" banner. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2007 : 14:29:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul:
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia:
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul:
What's the big deal. The Church of Secular Humanism wants all reference to Christmas banned in public arenas. I see no difference in that, and what the Saudis want to do.
No they don't.
If you put up a Merry Christmas banner in your city hall (in December) I have a feelling it won't stay up too long.
GK Paul, I should not need to remind you that evidence is a really good idea.
You have, so far, made the following unsupported assertions:
1. A Merry Christmas banner would not stay long in a city hall (did you realize your comment was made to a Brazilian? Would that change your "feelling" [sic]?)
2. There exists such thing as a "Church of Secular Humanism."
3. Some organization "wants all reference to Christmas banned in public arenas."
4. It is the "Church of Secular Humanism" that "wants all reference to Christmas banned in public arenas."
Please, provide some evidence in support of the above assertions.
Actually when I first used the "Church of Secular Humanism" I did it as a metaphor just like Coulter obviously did when she used the term "The Church of Liberalism" as a metaphor. But taking a closer look at it I find that my "feeling or gut instinct was right". There actually is a Church of Secular Humanism and the term is all over the internet.
Regarding your comments about organiztions wanting to ban all reference to Christmas in public arenas. That should be easy and I'll post a reference when I get the time. But why don't you take me up on my statement and make an effort to put up a Merry Christmas banner in any (large city) city hall in America. The city hall workers will have no problem taking a paid day off for Christmas though. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2007 : 14:31:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Damn, I missed out on seeing #1, Boron. That's hysterical. Yeah, in a country whereThe following religious holy days are observed as national or regional holidays: Saint Sebastian's Day, Ash Wednesday, Good Friday, Corpus Christi, Saint John's Day, Our Lady of Carmen ("Carmo"), Assumption Day, Our Lady Aparecida, All Souls' Day, Evangelicals Day, Immaculate Conception, and Christmas.
- Brazil - International Religious Freedom Report 2005 they're really going to freak out over the display of a "Merry Christmas" banner.
Though some of those listed speed by quite unnoticed, yeah, it's not like they'd come jumping at the collective throats. I'd never even heard about Evangelicals Day.
But as I was talking mostly about the US, so it's easily understandable what GK means. It's still wrong, my nationality notwithstanding. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2007 : 14:52:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Actually when I first used the "Church of Secular Humanism" I did it as a metaphor just like Coulter obviously did when she used the term "The Church of Liberalism" as a metaphor. But taking a closer look at it I find that my "feeling or gut instinct was right". There actually is a Church of Secular Humanism and the term is all over the internet.
The term might be all over the Internet, but you didn't actually read any of the web pages which use the term, did you? Your gut instinct was wrong.quote:
But why don't you take me up on my statement and make an effort to put up a Merry Christmas banner in any (large city) city hall in America.
Because that wouldn't do anything to prove that there is an effort to remove Christmas from all public "arenas." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2007 : 15:53:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Actually when I first used the "Church of Secular Humanism" I did it as a metaphor just like Coulter obviously did when she used the term "The Church of Liberalism" as a metaphor. But taking a closer look at it I find that my "feeling or gut instinct was right". There actually is a Church of Secular Humanism and the term is all over the internet.
By references GK means sites that include both the phrase "Secular Humanism" and "church" somewhere on that page.
quote:
Regarding your comments about organiztions wanting to ban all reference to Christmas in public arenas. That should be easy and I'll post a reference when I get the time. But why don't you take me up on my statement and make an effort to put up a Merry Christmas banner in any (large city) city hall in America. The city hall workers will have no problem taking a paid day off for Christmas though.
GK you truly amaze me. You think your way into a paper sack, like the environment and stay there. There is not actually a 'war on Christmas', but there are actually, are you ready for this, other religious and non-religious holidays out there! In fact, they occur around December. Also, they are just as important as your special day.
What I truly find funny is that you acknowledge the absurdity of the OP's cited article justified, you actually seem to think that religions should start banning letters they find offensive, and should start pushing their religion into the face of other, putting banners in city hall as if to claim it as territory for your religion but no one else's. Tell me GK would it be ok with you if someone did start a church of humanism and put up a sign that said "Merry Humanism Founder's day on December 25th" in your city hall? If suddenly, no one even mentioned Christmas unless they were trying for media hype. What if all of the advertisements had Humanism in July sales? What if you were the minority suddenly GK? Would you still be pushing your weight around or would you be crying for equal treatment of your religion suddenly?
Personally, I have no problem with Christmas, I love the day we celebrate Santa and all those toys! But I certainly do see the point of not recognizing one religion over the other. A good solution would be to recognize the collective holidays, and that banner would not even be winced at by the most hard arse City Hall. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2007 : 15:56:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Actually when I first used the "Church of Secular Humanism" I did it as a metaphor just like Coulter obviously did when she used the term "The Church of Liberalism" as a metaphor. But taking a closer look at it I find that my "feeling or gut instinct was right". There actually is a Church of Secular Humanism and the term is all over the internet.
Regarding your comments about organiztions wanting to ban all reference to Christmas in public arenas. That should be easy and I'll post a reference when I get the time. But why don't you take me up on my statement and make an effort to put up a Merry Christmas banner in any (large city) city hall in America. The city hall workers will have no problem taking a paid day off for Christmas though.
Providing a reference to one of your insane assertions. I'll believe that when I see it.
In your sig.
quote:
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
Such a conclusion impedes a thinking mind. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2007 : 15:59:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Actually when I first used the "Church of Secular Humanism" I did it as a metaphor just like Coulter obviously did when she used the term "The Church of Liberalism" as a metaphor.
We have already established that Ann Counter is a lying sack of excrement, and un-worthy of consideration.
It pains me to see you comparing yourself to here, especially when you know how we feel about her.
Your credibility is on an accelerating decline. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2007 : 17:26:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
In your sig.
quote:
[GK]:
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
Such a conclusion impedes a thinking mind.
Such thinking did impede Sir Newton. He figured out Calculus and the celestial orbits but stopped there assuming that god had put them in a plane. Of course, now we have good reasons for why the orbits of planets are mostly planar, and Newton certainly could have figured this out with the level of math used to calculate the multiple object gravity problem. He invented calculus but failed to look prior to the assumed information, ie the relationship of the planets to one another, without asking how they got into the relationship or why they would be and must (tentatively used) be. Newton is no more guilty than the rest of us who make the same mistakes everyday, but it was his belief in god being the source of that 'perfection' (even more tentatively used) that prevented his mind, ever curious, to ask that question. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2007 : 05:05:19 [Permalink]
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The following website gives some organizations that want to ban references to Christmas in the public arena.
http://www.catholicleague.org/linked%20docs/christmas_watch.htm
I had a good laugh when I read the post about the Riverside city employee who got a policeman to stop a high school choir from singing a hymm at a skating rink. But after I thought about it for awhile it made me sad to think how much our society has changed (for the worse). And did that Riverside city employee ever stop to consider the rights and feelings of the students who wanted to sing the hymm at the ice rink.
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"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 01/20/2007 06:01:35 |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2007 : 05:20:54 [Permalink]
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It appears that there are actually several different churches of Secular Humanism (one was founded by Frank Zappa and another by Gerald Baker).
Also the US Court of Appeals held that Secular Humanism is a non-theistic religion within the meaning of the first admendment.
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Secular_humanism/id/1896986 |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 01/20/2007 05:37:36 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2007 : 05:54:03 [Permalink]
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God-boy first admitted he was only using the term, "Church of Secular Humanism" as a metaphor ("I did it as a metaphor just like Coulter obviously did when she used the term 'The Church of Liberalism' as a metaphor.") Then he does a frantic Web search to prove, contradictorally, why he meant it literally all along.
Given God-boy's usage, I understand that his use of "metaphor" is a metaphor for lying like his hero Coulter does. Well, isn't he becoming a good little Coulter, now?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2007 : 13:35:40 [Permalink]
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YO! Abortion is the only thing that stirs up a hotter debate than what we're talking about in this thread.
Although I'm hard-pressed to have a definitive conclusion, I do think that humans need, in some cases, a spiritual component to their existence, whatever "spiritual" is. If it gets them through what it is needed to be gotten through, that's pretty cool. If the spiritual is extended by the experiencer to include others and what might affect others outside the inward, personal realm, then we usually have a problem, which is being articulated here in this thread.
There is nothing that can chill my bones more quickly than reading about something saying the letter X may be stricken from Saudi Arabia's usage. My god, how silly and frightening! And although I believe non-believers sometimes can be as pushy about their right to keep god at a distance (which personally doesn't bother me), I must post here a quote I read a long time ago in a rather well-known novel. I believe it pertains to anyone whether they have a faith or not. It was written by an atheist who once won a Nobel Prize.
"The evil that is in the world always comes of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence, if they lack understanding. On the whole men are more good than bad; that, however, isn't the real point. But they are more or less ignorant, and it is this that we call vice or virtue; the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything and therefore claims for itself the right to kill. There can be no true goodness, nor true love, without the utmost clear-sightedness."--Camus
Jesus would, undoubtedly, concur.
OY!
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"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me
"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty
"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde
"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus
"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde |
| Edited by - Orwellingly Yurz on 01/20/2007 14:57:37 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2007 : 22:31:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
The following website gives some organizations that want to ban references to Christmas in the public arena.
http://www.catholicleague.org/linked%20docs/christmas_watch.htm
Really? Name one.
Let's look at all of them:
A curmudgeon in Warwick, New York... A single individual, not an organization (response A).
American Atheists, Inc. of Connecticut... A private group attempting to stop a governmental endorsement of religion (response B).
The ACLU of Tennessee... Response B.
ACLU Executive Director Jack Van Valkenburgh... Response A.
Barry Lynn... Response A.
Student Affairs leaders at Boston's Northeastern University... A school, school representative or school group replacing "Christmas" with "holiday" or "winter," either on their own or out of fear of lawsuits (response C).
Administrators at New Jersey's Bear Tavern School... Response C.
The superintendent of New York state's Goshen school district... Response C.
Many of Virginia's public schools... Response C.
Management of Crane Middle School in Yuma, Arizona... Response C.
The Principal of Ohio's New Albany Intermediate Elementary School... Response C.
School officials at New York's Unity Drive Elementary School... A school, school representative or school group actively discriminating against one or more Christians either on their own or out of fear of a lawsuit (Response D).
Administrators at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, New York... Response C.
The principal of an elementary school in Delray Beach, Florida... Response C.
Michigan's Howell Public School District... Response C.
At Brandeis Elementary School in Louisville, Kentucky... Response C.
At Missouri State University... Response D.
At SUNY Buffalo... Response D.
At Delaware College of Art and Design... Response C.
Penn State... Clearly, the people who put together this list are far too sensitive to people being sensitive to other religions - there's not a single proscription of anything in this item, it's just that the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal and the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights don't want a professor of "Diversity Education" offering advice to be respectful of other people's religions. It is particularly insane that "2006 Christmas Watch" mocks this woman's caring and professional advice as "censoring Christmas." What a bunch of thugs. She, on the other hand, is a person or group doing absolutely nothing to eliminate Christmas from "public arenas" (response E).
New York state's Yorktown Central School District Board of Education... Response D.
Educators at Windmill Point Elementary in Port St. Lucie, Florida... Response D.
New Jersey's K-8 Howell School District and Board of Education... Response D.
Government leaders in Olean, New York... A governmental body refusing to endorse religion, or refusing to appear to endorse religion, either on their own or out of fear of lawsuits (response F).
Officials in Fort Collins, Colorado... Response F.
City Council members in Willis Park, Georgia... Response F.
Officials in Southfield, Michigan... Response F.
City officials in Safety Harbor, Florida... A governmental body actively discriminating against one or more Christians, either on their own or out of fear of lawsuits (response G).
Officials in Washington state's Department of General Administration... Response G.
The U.S. Department of State... Response F.
In Briarcliff Manor... Response G.
A city emp |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2007 : 23:09:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
It appears that there are actually several different churches of Secular Humanism (one was founded by Frank Zappa and another by Gerald Baker).
No, Zappa founded the Church of American Secular Humanism, and the intent of that is obvious from its abbreviation: C.A.S.H.. Zappa used it to make a point about a stupid ruling in a court case, not to start a church. In fact, Zappa dissolved the "Church" a very short time after the judge's ruling was overturned. C.A.S.H. does not exist anymore.
As for Baker, the link you left us, to The Global Oneness Committment doesn't even mention him. Instead, one needs to go to a different page on that site, the only page indexed in all of Google that claims that a "Gerald Baker" started a "Church of Secular Humanism." And even then, it clearly states that Baker thought that if all the fundamentalists thought that there was a Church of Secular Humanism, then he'd go ahead and create one. Like with Zappa, this "Church" also seems to have been to make a point, and there is zero evidence that it now exists (or that it ever actually existed).
quote:
Also the US Court of Appeals held that Secular Humanism is a non-theistic religion within the meaning of the first admendment.
And what you're leaving out is that such an argument is made only for legal and tax purposes, which is what Zappa and Baker were pointing out. From your link:The argument that "Secular Humanism" is, in fact, a religion is bolstered by the 1957 tax case of Washington Ethical Society v. District of Columbia (101 U.S. App. D.C. 371). It held that Secular Humanism is a non-theistic religion within the meaning of the First Amendment. The Washington Ethical Society case involved denial of the Society's application for tax exemption as a religious organization. The U.S. Court of Appeals reversed the Tax Court's ruling, defined the Society as a religious organization, and granted its tax exemption. The Court Stated,
The sole issue raised is whether petitioner falls within the definition of a "church" or a "religious society" . . . . The taxing authority urges denial of the tax exemption asserting petitioner is not a religious society or church and that it does not use its buildings for religious worship since "religious" and "worship" require a belief in and teaching of a Supreme Being who controls the universe. The position of the tax Court, in denying tax exemption, was that belief in and teaching of the existence of a Divinity is essential to qualify under the statute. . . . To construe exemptions so strictly that unorthodox or minority forms of worship would be denied the exemption benefits granted to those conforming to the majority beliefs might well raise constitutional issues . . . . We hold on this record and under the controlling statutory language petitioner qualifies as "a religious corporation or society" . . . .
While the 1994 holding (see above) [that the court hasn't ruled on whether "Secular Humanism" is a religion for "Establishment Clause purposes] appears to be the current law, tax exemption for religious purposes goes to the heart of the "Establishment Clause." This creates a controversy ripe for Supreme Court review. There is no evidence of any current, actual "Church of Secular Humanism." The 1957 ruling was for the "Washington Ethical Society."
The phrase "Church of Secular Humanism" is all over the Internet because fundamentalist Christians use the phrase as an insult and a weapon. Just like you were doing with your "metaphor," GK Paul, and just like Coulter does with hers. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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