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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 02/06/2002 : 04:37:25 [Permalink]
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Thank you. And a very small percentage of them are people in masks breaking glass. When you hear about protesters "clashing" with police, for the most part they are non-violent protesters being beaten by police.
And Bill Gates may have part of it right. Even George Soros got part of it right.
quote:
Many people out there are informed and are very serious about what they fight for.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 06:58:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
A little tangential tidbit about the band, Rage Against the Machine: (These guys are such morons; though I do like some of their songs  )
http://reason.com/0010/fe.bd.rage.shtml
(Hey, they even mention Noam!  )
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 02/05/2002 20:10:29
Thanks, TD. This is a nice little piece from a centrist point-of-view. I have long thought that Rage seemed too left-cause oriented to be truly serious. They almost seem like a caricature by taking up for one cause after another entirely uncritically. They may have idealized the extreme left long ago but guaranteed money from Sony has likely softened that considerably, perhaps to the point that they pay liberal causes lip service because that's what their fans have come to expect.
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 07:17:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Thank you. And a very small percentage of them are people in masks breaking glass. When you hear about protesters "clashing" with police, for the most part they are non-violent protesters being beaten by police.
Great googly-moogly Gorgo, why do you say things like this? Oh, pardon me, surely you have statistics that include the percentage of protesters who receive unprovoked assault from law enforcement because they were practicing their "non-violence"? And surely these are objective measurements, and not protesters, after the fact saying, "We weren't doing anything and they just started hitting us"? My goodness, you really must learn to apply your hard-earned skepticism where it is most needed - those subjects which you are most passionate about and which you are most emotional about.
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 08:16:03 [Permalink]
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So, you are not emotional if you take the word of police who say, "gosh we're out here getting shot at every day and you're whining because some protestors got their skulls cracked?"
quote:
Great googly-moogly Gorgo,
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 08:53:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
When you hear about protesters "clashing" with police, for the most part they are non-violent protesters being beaten by police.
But you haven't answered the question Gorgo - I will rephrase:
On what basis do you make these allegations?
Xev-Come not between the creationist and his pseudoscience-Bellringer |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 09:15:31 [Permalink]
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I don't know where Gorgo is getting his information but I have seen it firsthand and read other reports and saw commentary on TV. Sorry, but I have no URLs right now but many protests turn violent because of the actions of police.
WTO in Seattle a couple years ago was all non-violent except for one small group of anarchists. Many civil rights and peace marches in the 60s started peacefully until the police decided to firehose and beat protestors senseless.
Like it or not Gorgo is right about the world trade protestors. They have been extremely peaceful.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 14:01:17 [Permalink]
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Your source is biased. I am not sure if I trust its information.
But okay, supposing that they are correct:
A: Are the protesters suing?
Xev-Come not between the creationist and his pseudoscience-Bellringer |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 14:10:45 [Permalink]
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Ahh, your sources are not biased. Good. Worship them and bring them your firstborn.
I don't know if anyone is suing anyone.
quote:
Your source is biased. I am not sure if I trust its information.
But okay, supposing that they are correct:
A: Are the protesters suing?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 14:52:05 [Permalink]
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I watched one protest at the Seattle WTO that lasted well into the wee hours of the morning until right before the bars closed the police suddenly tear gassed the crowd that was guilty of singing and holding candles. I did see one or two beligerant drunks but the rest(several hundred) were doing nothing provocative.
Dunno about lawsuits from all this and each protest is different but this one I saw was very calm until the police decided that the group had done enough singing for one night.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 17:12:14 [Permalink]
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Gorgo: I don't have a firstborn, could I substitute two turtldoves and a ram? :p
quote:
I don't know if anyone is suing anyone.
Why those un-American pinko commie bastards! How can they disrespect our way of life so? :D
@tomic: Thanks, I am more inclined to trust Gorgo's source now.
Say, how do you get the emoticons to work?
Xev -Ad astra!- Bellringer
Edited by - Xev on 02/06/2002 17:13:16 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 17:31:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
So, you are not emotional if you take the word of police who say, "gosh we're out here getting shot at every day and you're whining because some protestors got their skulls cracked?"
I don't really know how this follows from what I said, but it seems you are operating in false dichotomy-land. No reasonable person would assert that the police are never at fault in these skirmishes. Likewise, it is foolish to assume that the police are always responsible. It is unlikely that the degree of fault is measurable with any certainty. What are we left with? Well, like it or not, we have to infer from what we know about the better-known behavior of these groups. Let's start with what is reasonable:
1) Most people do not behave in extreme ways most of the time.
2) Most protesters do not seek to engage in violence with law enforcement.
3) Most law officers do not seek to engage in violence with citizens.
4) Most protests that involve police presence never escalate to state-citizen violence.
These suggest that this type of violence is rare enough that no reasonable conclusions can be drawn re: the root cause of police-protester violence.
Now, some ideas that are more contentious:
a) Most protesters have strong emotional reactions to the subjects they are protesting.
b) Law enforcement officers have less emotional commitment to their present duties than the protesters have to their missions.
c) Negative emotions, especially in a group, have a tendency to make people behave extremely.
If I accept these claims as valid, I am more likely to consider police action justified because I am more likely to think that the protesters are the general cause of the disturbance. Now, I admit that this does not consider the extent to which the severityof police action is justified once the skirmish is underway but I think that's a different issue. I welcome your criticism of my inductive process.
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 17:42:01 [Permalink]
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Great googly-moogly PHDREAMER, why do you say things like this? Oh, pardon me, surely you have statistics that include the percentage of police who receive unprovoked assault from WTO protestors because they were practicing their "non-violence"? And surely these are objective measurements, and not police officers, after the fact saying, "We weren't doing anything and they just started hitting us"? My goodness, you really must learn to apply your hard-earned skepticism where it is most needed - those subjects which you are most passionate about and which you are most emotional about.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 17:51:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Great googly-moogly PHDREAMER, why do you say things like this? Oh, pardon me, surely you have statistics that include the percentage of police who receive unprovoked assault from WTO protestors because they were practicing their "non-violence"? And surely these are objective measurements, and not police officers, after the fact saying, "We weren't doing anything and they just started hitting us"? My goodness, you really must learn to apply your hard-earned skepticism where it is most needed - those subjects which you are most passionate about and which you are most emotional about.
Originality will get you nowhere. Do I need to make it more clear that what I posted just prior is a simple breakdown of my own inductive process? If you have specific gripes, I would honestly like to hear them. I have a background in psychology and sociology and I am using that as my starting point but I have been out for almost 5 years. You might try suggesting some objective reasons you find my logic or my facts in error rather than saying "I know you are but what am I."
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2002 : 18:00:17 [Permalink]
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A lot has been written about what happened in Seattle. Many factors contributed to the specific violence there including understaffing of police and poor planning as well as a dedicated group of anarchist troublemakers. 50,000 union people marched that same day with no violence.
The tear gassing of the crowd later in the evening was partially due to frayed nerves and tired police.
But that was only Seattle. As I said, each protest has its own dynamics.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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