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dimossi
Skeptic Friend
USA
141 Posts |
 Posted - 02/21/2002 : 08:04:51
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Dubya is the biggest moron....while on his trip to Japan he seems to have forgotten World War II when he made this statement:
"My trip to Asia begins here in Japan for an important reason. It begins here because for a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times. From that alliance has come an era of peace in the Pacific."
You can hear it for yourself here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1825000/video/_1828526_presser01_bush_vi.ram
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." [Carl Sagan]
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
 Posted - 02/21/2002 : 08:49:47 [Permalink]
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It's hard to tell who's worse: Dubya, Bush Sr., Dan Quayle or Al Gore(remember, he did claim to have invented the Internet).
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your common sense." -Buddha |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 08:56:20 [Permalink]
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He probably meant to say half a century like it was presumably written in his notes. I would really have liked to see the faces of the Japanese at that point.
I don't remember much of my history lessons concerning this period in Asia but the little I do remember was somewhat different.
Until a 150 years ago were more or less happily isolated. Then Admiral Perry cam form the US with his warships and opened Japan up for the west. This lead to the Meji-restoration and a new expansionist Japan. War with China, Russland much of the rest of the region and at lest Pearl Harbor followed.
If this is what Bush considers an era of peace in the pacific and if he considers what Perry did forming an alliance then much of his decisions make sense. You just have to look at them from a different point of view.
I kind of hope that he really did misread and does not honestly think that he can form a similar sort 'alliance against terror' to create an 'era of peace' for places like the middle east.
--
Why do I only spot my mistakes the second after I posted the message?
Edited by - Lars_H on 02/21/2002 09:05:20 |
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dimossi
Skeptic Friend
USA
141 Posts |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 11:55:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Lars_H wrote:
"...Until a 150 years ago were more or less happily isolated. Then Admiral Perry cam form the US with his warships and opened Japan up for the west. This lead to the Meji-restoration and a new expansionist Japan. War with China, Russland much of the rest of the region and at lest Pearl Harbor followed..."
History is subtle. You're basically correct except Perry's visit was actually very cordial, and despite his warships, Japan was eager at this moment in history to make contact with the West. Perry was no threat either as his small, invited crew were greatly out numbered on land. The Meji Restoration was on-going at that time and seeking actively Western influence and technology.
From the late 19th Century and into the 20th, with regard to invasions into China, internal military turmoil, quest for raw materials, and conflicts with Tsarist Russia, Japan modeled herself after the Western colonialist policies, which were not forced upon Japan from the outside. The West was interested in making money. Japan industrialized in both civil and military ways (first with US and British help,) and by the 1930's had built a huge navy and air force. (Japan had long raided China before this time.)
Your statement tends to sound as if innocent "happily isolated" Japan was forced into WW II by the Americans, and possibly British and Dutch, who also conducted trade and had colonies elsewhere in Asia.
The Japanese are great people and the Americans are not always right, but in this case the Americans were not directly responsible for Japan's long history of war, and in 1941 the Americans, British, and Dutch were the victims of Japan's geo-political aims.
President Bush's statements were I think misread by him as usual.
"Speaking without thinking like shooting without aiming." - Charlie Chan
Edited by - chippewa on 02/21/2002 17:11:43 |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 13:22:49 [Permalink]
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I gave a rather one-sided view on the subject on purpose. I probably should have put some sort of smileys around it to indicate that while I was not completly serious I was trying to make a point. I have no idea what sort of smiley would have been appropriate for that.
I know that it is idiotic to think Perrys expedition lead directly to Pearl Harbor. Nor were the 'modern' ways forced on Japan from the outside.
Arguments could be made about Perry's visit. The US really did get a good deal out of it. And showing up with war ships and showing them pictures of the Mexican war is something that was bound to have some sort of impression on them.
But that was not the point I was trying to make. The actual facts are much to hazy to make any sort of convincing argument on my side. What I was trying to show was how ridiculous his statement was.
It does not get all that much better if you know what he actually meant to say. The alliance that was formed there was mostly an alliance between victor and defeated. And the era of peace in the pacific is debatable. But let's not go there.
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 13:52:54 [Permalink]
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Maybe, the President would contend that dropping a couple of nuclear warheads on your strategic partner is an act of international bonding.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 13:58:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Maybe, the President would contend that dropping a couple of nuclear warheads on your strategic partner is an act of international bonding.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson
[sarcasm]
Sure it was. Since this is the "spiritual President", the US was trying to help as many of the Japanese to the afterlife. Compassion on an epic level.
[/sarcasm]
George needs to learn to read his speeches as they are written as John Kennedy needed to.
"Ich bin ein Berliner" - translation "I am a jelly doughnut"
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 14:20:22 [Permalink]
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Is that why chicks dug him?
My kids still love me. |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 15:18:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
"Ich bin ein Berliner" - translation "I am a jelly doughnut"
But since he had America's checkbook in his back pocket they applauded anyway. An elderly German friend of mine told me that Kennedy could have claimed to be a Belgian waffle with extra chocolate sprinkles, as long as he agreed to support Germany and West Berlin.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 15:20:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
George needs to learn to read his speeches as they are written as John Kennedy needed to.
"Ich bin ein Berliner" - translation "I am a jelly doughnut"
Urban Legend alert!!!
Yes a Berliner can reffer to someting to eat in some parts of germany a jelly doughnut or pancake depnding on where you are. Ofcourse the 'Berliner' themselves call the foodstuff something else. Nobody in his audience misunderstood him. People sometimes jokingly misunderstand the quote on purpose, but nobody with german as his native languange would suggest that Kennedy should have put this another way.
I can't imagine Bush ever making a speech like this even if he were just reading the lines somebody else wrote.
Trying to form a mental picture, but it all breaks down when he reaches the part in Latin.
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 16:07:40 [Permalink]
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True, its mostly urban legend. All he did was put in the "ein". People knew what he meant, despite the grammar.
(My german friends still think its sort of funny though)
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 16:47:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
True, its mostly urban legend. All he did was put in the "ein". People knew what he meant, despite the grammar.
(My german friends still think its sort of funny though)
Lisa
Yes it is funny, but only if one delibaretly misunderstands him. "Ich bin ein Amerikaner" Would have also been funny since there is foodstuff with the name, too.
But there was no grammatical mistake. The use of the 'ein' is a bit tricky, but his usage there was correct.
If asked for your nationality you would normally say something like "Ich bin Amerikaner" leaving out the 'ein'. Similar constructs can be made with or without the article. I won't bore you with details.
But the way he was using it as a 'proudest boast' and contrasting it with the 'civis Romanus sum' makes it clear that his version is the correct one. He was not just saying that he was from Berlin. The 'ein' could be interpreted as emphacising having the selfevident atributes of a Berliner in this case.
The second time he used it, it was clearly meant metaphorically wich gives more reason to an 'ein'.
Language is far to complicated, to compress it into simple and foolproof gramatical rules.
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2002 : 19:52:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Actually, Gore didn't exactly claim to have invented the internet.
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.htm
Thought constitutes the greatness of man -Pascal
Oh, sure. Take away my fun, why don't ya?  
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your common sense." -Buddha |
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