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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 02/18/2002 : 16:48:46 [Permalink]
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So, Haiti and Cuba can bomb the U.S. because the U.S. harbors terrorists according to Atomic's law?
Do they negotiate with murderers? All the time. They supported Suharto, The Shah, the Contras, the.... need I go on?
Terrorism is what the other guy does.
quote:
You should try opening a newspaper sometime Gorgo.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2002 : 05:22:14 [Permalink]
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Actually, they didn't refuse. You should read the newspapers.
The U.S. was unconcerned with the government of Afghanistan when they undertook their attack on the civilian population. After the fact, they decided to side with some unsavory people who had been in power before, and over which the Afghan people preferred the Taliban.
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You should try opening a newspaper sometime Gorgo. The Taliban allowed their country to be used as a base from which to launch terrorist attacks. Do the police negotiate with a murderer? I don't think so. The US asked for Osama to be handed over and they refused. Even without that, allowing Afghanistan to be used as a terrorist base of operations was more than enough cause to go in and take care of business.
The Taliban needed to go. That was clear for a long time. I don't think that even Afghans miss them. They have a better shot at living a good life now than they did 5 months ago.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2002 : 09:09:37 [Permalink]
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You are claiming the taliban was elected????
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2002 : 10:08:39 [Permalink]
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Of course not. Are you claiming Bush was elected?
quote:
You are claiming the taliban was elected????
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2002 : 10:12:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
After the fact, they decided to side with some unsavory people who had been in power before, and over which the Afghan people preferred the Taliban.
Then what prompted you to say this? What makes you say the Afghan people preferred the Taliban? They sure seemed thrilled when the Taliban was deposed.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2002 : 12:08:25 [Permalink]
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Regardless of what that page said people were elated at the demise of the Taliban and with so much attention being lavished on Afghanistan and with peacekeepers present change, I dare say significantly for the better, has come to Afghanistan. Things are looking up there.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2002 : 12:28:14 [Permalink]
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I'm sure that that is what the corporate media and the State Department would have you believe.
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Things are looking up there.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2002 : 12:29:56 [Permalink]
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Well, that does it for me in this topic Gorgo unless you want to move it over to conspiracy theories.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2002 : 12:43:58 [Permalink]
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Right. Anyone who disagrees with you is a nut.
quote:
Well, that does it for me in this topic Gorgo unless you want to move it over to conspiracy theories.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2002 : 20:17:28 [Permalink]
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A couple of things:
Badger
quote:
It appears to me that Bush is acting as point man for western countries, and he should probably consult with them behind the scenes a bit more before he opens his mouth. But terrorism is a concern to many countries, and this is what is driving the whole thing.
Bush is acting as a selfelcted point-man that is right. Politicans from all over Bush's 'Alliance' have to explain his remarks to their people. He really could be more considerat.
Terrorism is a concern for many countries. That is right. The Chinese have problems with Terrorists of all kinds, the Turks have problems with the kurdish terrorists, the jews have problems with palestinian terrorists. All over the place people have been using this war on terror to justify the erradiction of their enemies.
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Gorgo, didn't the Taliban have some missionaries in custody prior to 9/11? Were they not actively cutting off ties to the rest of the world? I'm not sure of the timing of this last one, but didn't they take over the Red Cross office prior to commencement of bombing?
Under Taliban law it was forbidden to try and missionize people. The helpers from the Red Cross new about these laws. They said they would accept them. Four of the workers had to be idiots and try and win some of the locals over to christ anyway. Thus they not only mangaed to put themselves behind bars but also endengared the whole humantarina aid mission with their idiocy.
If they wanted to break Taliban law and risk the punishment because of their faith that is their problem. I would probably have cheered them on. But using the humantarian aid thing as a guise was a very stupid thing to do.
To @tomic:
quote:
You should try opening a newspaper sometime Gorgo. The Taliban allowed their country to be used as a base from which to launch terrorist attacks. Do the police negotiate with a murderer? I don't think so. The US asked for Osama to be handed over and they refused. Even without that, allowing Afghanistan to be used as a terrorist base of operations was more than enough cause to go in and take care of business.
Apperantly the US does negotiate with murederers. The WTC attack was not the first thing that they knew Bin Laden was responsible for. They new that he was in Afghanistan. They even at several points tried to do something about him.
But apperantly as long as it were just US servicemen and embassypersonal who were killed aboard it was OK. At least they were still trying to do business with the Taliban at that point.
Re: the general question wheter the whole thing improved matters for the average Afghani.
I think it is to early to say anything definite about that. On the one hand they got rid of all that religious law. On the other hand some of the people now in power don't appear to be any sort of improvment. The Anti-Taliban fighter in some parts appear to be as mysogynistic as their enemys. There is hope that they will achive some sort of stable and free democracy in the future.
Economically things are definetly looking up. With the opium production being restarted again and everything.
About the cheering of the people. I would not give to much to that. People do tend to cheer to the victors when the war is over and they are tired of fighting regardless of who won; especially if ones failure to be cheered about the victory might lead to ones execution.
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2002 : 09:29:53 [Permalink]
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Lars, you're right about people using the war on terror to justify eradicating their enemies.
I guess that ideally these differences of opinion within and between countries should go to some sort of unbiased world council that has the ability to back up their rulings.
WRT the missionaries, you're right that they were stupid to pull such a thing if they knew the rules and consequences. Of course the Taliban didn't seem to be following up with the consequences in a timely fashion. It appeared that they were using them more as hostages.
While it wasn't ok for US embassy personnel and servicement to be killed abroad, going to war over those incidents didn't have public support. That support was garnered when people could see the terrorism occurring live, on tv, in their own country.
Gorgo, they did try to negotiate, both before and after 9/11. The Taliban wasn't open to negotiations. The article you linked is indeed tragic. I think, though, that the trigger would have been pulled no matter if the Americans were supporting the Northern Alliance or not. There are nuts with guns everywhere.
But now Afghanistan is in the international spotlight. I'm sure the glare of that spotlight will expose other cockroaches, but then they can be dealt with appropriately.
State department, and corporate media? Ya, sure Gorgo. It's all a conspiracy by the Man. The Muslim media is so much more evenhanded in its dealings with topics pertaining to western culture, isn't it?
I'm stumblin through the parking lot of an invisible 7-eleven. ZZ-Top |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2002 : 09:29:56 [Permalink]
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Lars, you're right about people using the war on terror to justify eradicating their enemies.
I guess that ideally these differences of opinion within and between countries should go to some sort of unbiased world council that has the ability to back up their rulings.
WRT the missionaries, you're right that they were stupid to pull such a thing if they knew the rules and consequences. Of course the Taliban didn't seem to be following up with the consequences in a timely fashion. It appeared that they were using them more as hostages.
While it wasn't ok for US embassy personnel and servicement to be killed abroad, going to war over those incidents didn't have public support. That support was garnered when people could see the terrorism occurring live, on tv, in their own country.
Gorgo, they did try to negotiate, both before and after 9/11. The Taliban wasn't open to negotiations. The article you linked is indeed tragic. I think, though, that the trigger would have been pulled no matter if the Americans were supporting the Northern Alliance or not. There are nuts with guns everywhere.
But now Afghanistan is in the international spotlight. I'm sure the glare of that spotlight will expose other cockroaches, but then they can be dealt with appropriately.
State department, and corporate media? Ya, sure Gorgo. It's all a conspiracy by the Man. The Muslim media is so much more evenhanded in its dealings with topics pertaining to western culture, isn't it?
I'm stumblin through the parking lot of an invisible 7-eleven. ZZ-Top |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2002 : 09:48:05 [Permalink]
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I think you may recall that the Taliban (disingenuously or not) offered to give up Osama bin Laden under certain conditions. The U.S. said (as Daddy Bush did with Iraq years before) they would not negotiate. They demanded that he be given up with no conditions. There was no realistic attempt at negotiations. Had they used the time that it took to build up to an attack negotiating, they may not have needed to kill hundreds, maybe even thousands or millions of innocent people. We'll never know the number.
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Gorgo, they did try to negotiate,
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2002 : 12:14:39 [Permalink]
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....and the rest of the quote is "both before and after 9/11."
There were fewer options on the table after 9/11.
Your talk of the killing of innocents strikes me as hollow. The Americans aren't trying to kill innocents, and in fact are trying to prevent that. The terrorists have vowed to kill innocents as their goal.
I'll cut to the chase and put it in simple and harsh terms. I'm glad the US is taking care of these terrorist vermin before they have a chance to start blowing themselves and other innocents up at the movie theaters, offices, factories, and shopping malls my friends, family, and myself work at and frequent.
I'm stumblin through the parking lot of an invisible 7-eleven. ZZ-Top |
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