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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 02/25/2002 : 07:29:55 [Permalink]
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He didn't turn anything around if you are the one that turns around what he said into something else. He quoted the article almost verbatim.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2002 : 07:32:55 [Permalink]
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"In late September, the UN Food And Agricultural Organization warned that over 7 million people were facing a crisis that could lead to widespread starvation if military action were initiated, with a likely "humanitarian catastrophe" unless aid were immediately resumed and the threat of military action terminated.
After bombing began, the FAO advised that it had disrupted planting that provides 80% of the country's grain supplies, so that the effects next year are expected to be even more severe. All ignored."
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2002 : 07:37:21 [Permalink]
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Yep, I was just looking back over the article, too. You're right. He doesn't say an 80% drop. He just picks up what the UN FAO says. Which has the same problems I was previously laying at Chomsky's doorstep.
They say the bombing will 'disrupt' the planting. They still ignore the points I've brought up about how much it will disrupt in relation to the dry years and the significant reduction in yield that occurred prior to September 11. There was a serious problem there before the war on terrorism, but now they're conveniently laying the blame on it as if the rest hadn't happened.
But I suppose the dry years are the US's fault, too.
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2002 : 08:01:50 [Permalink]
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I don't know about the drought, but it is interesting the way the politics of poverty do play into natural disasters. Too deep a subject for me, but when you hear about large numbers of people dying because of hurricanes or floods or droughts or famines, it usually has as much to do with the politics of the region as the weather.
We have to ask ourselves what influence the West has in the poverty of Afghanistan before we can talk about how much the effects of the drought have to do with the U.S.
Can't answer that question, ain't gonna try.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 12:04:55 [Permalink]
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Just to make it clear that I'm not just dropping an argument I'm afraid of losing:
Gorgo, you've made me rethink my position on the degree of US culpability in Afghanistan's plight from the 70's until 9/11. When I can get the time, I'll dig deeply into this to draw a firm conclusion; in the meantime, it appears the US was callously and alternately manipulative and indifferent.
P.S. I stand by my comments on the grain issue, though...
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 14:06:37 [Permalink]
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[quote]
Just to make it clear that I'm not just dropping an argument I'm afraid of losing:
[/quote]
I'll take that as a an admission of defeat and expression of awe at my obviously superior and almost infallible intellect.
[quote]
Gorgo, you've made me rethink my position on the degree of US culpability in Afghanistan's plight from the 70's until 9/11. When I can get the time, I'll dig deeply into this to draw a firm conclusion; in the meantime, it appears the US was callously and alternately manipulative and indifferent.
[/quote]
Let us know what you find. Unless you find that I'm wrong, which means that you made a grave mistake.
[quote]
P.S. I stand by my comments on the grain issue, though...
My kids still love me.
[/quote]
I plan on looking into it all more than I have, but there's only so much time.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 02/28/2002 14:07:13 |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 14:15:23 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Gorgo:
I'll take that as a an admission of defeat and expression of awe at my obviously superior and almost infallible intellect.
[/quote]
I see we are matched not only in obstinance, but in humility as well.
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2002 : 09:29:52 [Permalink]
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Some of this discussion, had to do with Iraq, and I'm hoping that the following discussion will at least begin to answer some questions left unanswered:
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020121&s=letter#reply#reply
I'd also like to speak to a question left unanswered. I think it was Garrette that asked at what point the term genocide is reasonable. I think at the point that the U.S. allows a reasonable world court to exist. When there is such a thing as international law, and the U.S. decides to abide by it, then it will be reasonable to talk about the crimes of Saddam Hussein, or Slobodan Milosevic, or Bill Clinton, or Ariel Sharon, or the Bush family, or Ronald Reagan, or Jimmy Carter, or Henry Kissinger. Until then, it's all just a game of size and propaganda.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2002 : 19:39:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo, you've made me rethink my position on the degree of US culpability in Afghanistan's plight from the 70's until 9/11
The news hasn't focused on the history prior to the Soviet invasion in '78-79.
First, 'invasion' isn't really the best term. Afghanistan was a pro-soviet nation, and strategically vital to the greater USSR. It was an ally of the Russians, although not part of the Warsaw Pact. Tribal warlords tried to wrest power from the government in an insurgency. They were largely successful and the official government was going to fall.
So the russians sent the standard 100,000 men (a Tank Army) to support their allies.
It's like if we invaded Mexico if drug lords over-ran the government. It wasn't an act of conquest per se. They arlready were welcome by the legitimate government of Afghanistan.
The US saw the oppurtunity to wage a by-proxy war much like the Russians and Chinese did in Vietnam. Although we were far more secretive about our involvement then either of the Combloc countries during 'Nam.
We helped form and equip the rebels (the insurgents and traitors by law- freedom fighters if they aren't commies) which became the Mujahadeen. We helped them set up money networks for funding and clandestine operations.
In essence, the US created Al Queda- or at least drew up the blueprints that Bin Laden is using. We made a similar mistake by supporting Saddam Hussein in the 80's to counter the Ayotollah in Iran.
It's called backlash. Another reason we should smoke Saddam right now. You see how serious backlash can be when you support maniacal despots.
Bleed for me, I've bled for you. Embrace me child, I'll see you through. |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2002 : 20:00:33 [Permalink]
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I don't at all understand the thick headed opposition to whacking Hussein now. Not tomorrow, not next week, right fucking now.
I heard one jackass congressman today yapping about 'imminant threats' and Hussein being at least 5 years from having nukes. So obviously we can't go in.
WTFO? So you're suggesting we wait until HE DOES have nukes to lob onto our troops before sending them in?
Obviously the closest this guy ever came to a soldier was Cap'n Crunch. Hey thanks buddy, the soldiers sure do appreciate waiting to attack until the bad guy NUKES your ass.......
Crossfire tonight had the exact same argument I had with Gorgo in another thread about 'proof' of a WMD program will be classified, so he will never get proof beyond the president saying so. So quit crying about it. They didn't resolve it either, Gorgo.
So the dove approach is to pretend it doesn't exist (Clinton and Al Queda style) and just slide thru leaving the mess for the next generation. Fucking cowards!
The US should have stepped into WWII much earlier, but it sat and let atrocities occur to remain at peace. It ultimately failed and we were dragged into war anyway.
The US should have never dealt with the Afghans or it should have eliminated the Muj and installed a government after the soviets left. They became terrorists and gained control of Afghanistan through the Taliban. And while atrocities occured, we chose to remain at peace. But it didn't work and we were dragged into war anyway.
We supported Hussein and his murderous urges. Eventually he turned on us and he got a spanking. We could have taken Iraq right there and then with global approval. But we chose not to so expansionist and left him. We chose peace (despite occasional airstrikes) over occupation......
See a trend developing here, folks?
Bleed for me, I've bled for you. Embrace me child, I'll see you through. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2002 : 04:21:50 [Permalink]
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Yes, it's called genocide. The U.S. has been at war with Iraq for over ten years. If there are nuclear bomb factories on the backs of mules, which there are not, then the U.S. would have taken them out.
quote:
See a trend developing here, folks?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2002 : 04:29:44 [Permalink]
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Conspiracy theories.
quote:
The news hasn't focused on the history prior to the Soviet invasion in '78-79.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2002 : 04:32:02 [Permalink]
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My memory is that Afghanistan was a pro-Soviet nation for the same reason that Vietnam was a pro-U.S. nation. They installed the leadership, then that leadership "invited" the Soviets in. Could be wrong on that, this is from memory.
quote:
First, 'invasion' isn't really the best term. Afghanistan was a pro-soviet nation, and strategically vital to the greater USSR.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2002 : 11:55:34 [Permalink]
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So as not to hijack another thread, I'll place this here. Someone was humble enough to admit their ignorance as to the definition of genocide. Here is the legal definition:
http://www.tufts.edu/departments/fletcher/multi/texts/BH225.txt
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2002 : 12:49:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't at all understand the thick headed opposition to whacking Hussein now. Not tomorrow, not next week, right fucking now. [Solly]
I believe some of the opposition is coming from non less than the majority leaders of the House AND Senate. Since Congress pays the war bill, wouldn't it be nice to have the money guys on your side? If Bush can't convince the high mucky-mucks behind closed doors showing them classified information, then who am I to go along with him?
Sorry, but I'm with Powell on this one.
The problem is NOT a war with Iraq, but what do you do AFTER the smoke has cleared. And we haven't a clue. But if you want a forecast, then add the car bombings and assasination attempts in Afghanistan against our "puppet" government there, and apply it to post-war Iraq. There's nothing worse than a sore loser who still has plenty of ammo.
The Baath party and all their supporters are just going to quit their opposition and place nice? Don't think so.
(:raig |
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